View Full Version : What to upgrade?
I have the following setup downstairs for A/V:
Sony DVD 715
Sony A/V receiver 930
Tannoy Mercury M3 fronts
Tannoy Mercury MC centre
Tannoy Mercury M1 rears
Upstairs I have an Arcam Alpha 7SE and Sony 940 Amp hooked up to a pair of Tannoy Mercury MX2 speakers.
What I want to do is improve the stereo performance especially, and A/V if poss, of my downstairs system.
Should I go for a better A/V reciever, processor etc? Should I use my Sony AMP to power the fronts etc...
Your help please
BB
Cable Monkey
03-10-2001, 18:31
bruboy
the weak link in your system is indeed your amp. You have a number of choices but I will try to keep this brief! You could replace your AV amp. Consider Denons new offerings and perhaps the new Marantz AV amps. Listen to anything before you buy! An alternative is a hi-fi power amp to amplify your stereo channels. The 930 can still be used to power the centre and 2 rears. This option may be difficult to set up though as you still need an 'integrated' sound for movie performance.
Bapapapa
03-10-2001, 18:44
bruboy - You're in the ideal position to experiment. Stick your 940 amp downstairs powering the front speakers and see how it sounds.
I'm not sure from your post if you intend to scrap the upstairs system altogether, or just use it for temporary experiments.
I'm also assuming that you are happy with the performance of your upstairs stsreo system.
Few current DVD players will come close to your Arcam CD player for straight stereo playback, and I'm afraid the Sony 715 was an early example of what a fist a DVD player can make of it.
Consequently I'll have to differ with the advice you've got so far, and say that IMO, for audio playback, your 715 is the weak link.
Try a side by side comparison of the 7SE against the 715 on CD playback - even through the 930 amp, I think you'll find a bit of a difference in quality. I'd use the DAC in the Arcam personally, and a set of decent, but not too extravagant, interconnects.
For the 715, you may find the digital connection using the 930 DACs is better, but I doubt even that will be anywhere close to the Arcam.
Make sure you use the 2-channel mode on the 930 amp too!
I wouldn't argue that the 940 stereo amp is better for straight stereo than the 930AV amp, but I don't think you'll find the differences as marked as with the CD vs DVD.
As for speakers, that's a personal choice - there are some who reckon that Tannoy took one step forward and two steps back when replacing the Mercury range with the MX, but I've not listened to each extensively enough to be able to comment either way. The M3 will have a greater depth and scale than the MX2 though (but that's not really surprising given the rather obvious differences).
So, what to upgrade?
Assuming you want to keep the upstairs system intact, then downstairs, I'd add a dedicated CD player (only using the 715 for DVD movie playback). Assuming you want to get close to the upstairs system performance, then it may entail spending a few bob, but Richer's recently had a good offer on the Sony 930 CD player (I wish they'd use different numbers), which is reputed to be a cracking player for the £150 it was offered for.
Failing that it's demo time - and if you are happy with the 7SE, then it may be worth considering one of those again.
Have a listen around though, Richers have also had some good deals recently on Marantz CD players - but I'd avoid anything too bright if partnering with the 930 AV amp (although the M3s may help a bit here too).
Bapapapa
03-10-2001, 19:47
Sage advice MikeK, but my advice is still valid as he can see if the amp makes a difference for free. :p
Yes, fair enough!
However, I was (without wanting to start a big argument) attempting to point out that no amplifier will make the 715 into a good CD spinner.
It's the old adage - crap in, crap out !
Sorry bruboy - but you did ask!!
Remember though, that it's my opinion - feel free to disagree whenever you want!
Bapapapa
03-10-2001, 20:00
I doubt if any CD player would make the 930 AV amp sound good in stereo. :p
Radiohead
03-10-2001, 20:15
Do we know for a fact that the upstairs amp is the TAF-940R, rather than the STR-940 AV amp? (Sony are bloody confusing here). I was under the impression that the TAF-940R was a fairly good amp - a little bright maybe, but then it could be argued that it balances out the Arcam's warmth.
I would, however, concur with my esteemed colleagues-in-forum, MikeK and Baps - the Sony 930 AV amp is poo for stereo, as is the 715 DVD player. I managed to bag one of the Sony CDP-930XE CD players MikeK refers to, and they are indeed extremely good (for the original price of £300, let alone £150). Baps knows the drill - puck comes off, puck goes on.....
Incidentally I have the CD player partnered with mX3's for stereo and they are very happy together. And the difference between the CD player and my Panasonic DVD-RV6- player was very obvious.
Originally posted by MikeK
Yes, fair enough!
However, I was (without wanting to start a big argument) attempting to point out that no amplifier will make the 715 into a good CD spinner.
It's the old adage - crap in, crap out !
Sorry bruboy - but you did ask!!
Remember though, that it's my opinion - feel free to disagree whenever you want!
The S715 has the same audio stages as the DVPS7700, and in its time it was given numerous best buys, and equivelent to a £200 CD audio deck (What Hi-Fi compared it to a Marantz CD63 at the time!). It also tramples on the DVPS725 and 735 for audio reply (but the 735 has better picture quality).
Argument over:D
Originally posted by Justin
The S715 has the same audio stages as the DVPS7700, and in its time it was given numerous best buys, and equivelent to a £200 CD audio deck (What Hi-Fi compared it to a Marantz CD63 at the time!). It also tramples on the DVPS725 and 735 for audio reply (but the 735 has better picture quality).
Argument over:D
Hmmm, very strange - I seem to recall Sony's first generation of DVD players getting something of a pasting generally in the press.
Still, it is a while ago - but if you are going to quote What Hifi, they also said the STRDB930 was awe-inspiring and a very competent performer in stereo too. Seems they may not always be right!
Having a scratch round, I just found this
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/testbench/frame.html?http://www.homecinemachoice.com/testbench/DVDPlayers/Sony/SonyDVP-S715_audio.shtml
Offers an alternative view!
Many years ago now ( :) ), when I first started looking at DVD players, I had a look at the Sony 715, alongside the Toshiba 3107. For the money they were asking at the time, I remember not being that impressed - but if I'd had to choose one it would have been the Toshiba, better picture, better sound (not particularly great though)
I ended up with a Philips matchline player (on offer), as by that time, I'd given up on the idea of using DVD players as CD players.
Still, it just goes to show that everyone has a different opinion based on their own experiences etc.
While I've not heard every DVD player around, (or CD for that matter), I'd be surprised if there was one around (for less than a grand) which would stack up against the 7SE CD player.
My opinion is that if two channel audio is a priority, and you have a keen ear, then you are going to have to use a dedicated CD deck, and possibly a dedicated two channel amp.
While DVD players and AV receivers are perfectly OK up to a point, they just don't yet seem to be able to make that final step onto the big stage, as far as stereo CD playback goes.
And when setting up a system, or upgrading a current one, the first point of attention should always be the main music source - if you don't get that up to standard, then anything else you do will just be tinkering around - no amp or pair of speakers will ever make a poor source component sound good. On the other hand, a really good source component can make even modest amps and speakers perform well above the level many might expect.
So back to the question
Arcam 7SE CD and STRDB930 AV amp
vs
Sony DVPS715 DVD and TAF940 stereo amp.
My money would be on the Arcam/930 combination every time.
(this is assuming that, as mentioned by Radiohead, we are indeed talking about the TAF940, as I think we've all assumed - damn Sony's insistence on bloody matching numbers :) )
OK. A lot to take in there - thanks guys!
The amp upstairs is indeed just the 2-channel TAF940 which I'm very pleased with.
I'd love to partner it up to the M3s but I need their bass for the A/V as I'm lacking a sub at the moment so the MX2s will do for now.
How easy would it be to set the TAF940 up to power the fronts downstairs with the STRDB930 powering the centre and rears?
I can see myself getting ******** off pretty quick with having to mess about balancing the volume controls on the two amps every time I want to watch a movie...
Hmmm.
Everyone, including me, is agreed that the Alpha 7SE wipes the floor with the 715 in stereo playback!
So, in terms of upgrading the the A/V amp how much would I need to spend to get good stereo performance (presuming my Alpha 7SE is providing the input)? Is it possible!? Would something like the Rotel RSX972 be up to the job? How much could I expect to get for my STRDB930 if I get rid of it?
Inevitably, if I started spending serious money on the amp then I'd have to look at upgrading the speakers to. The usual ever-increasing hi-fi circle!
I'm also wondering about the DVD player - in terms of picture quality how much improvement has there been since I bought the 715? Is it worth an upgrade?
Your thoughts would be appreciated again guys!
TIA
BruBoy
lovegroova
04-10-2001, 10:14
Lots of good advice above...
I have had a similar dilemma to yours recently, at least with regard to upgrading the surround amp. I have a Denon AVR3300 which is a pretty good AV amp but something wasn't quite there on stereo reproduction so what I have done is to buy a 5 channel power amp (Rotel RMB 1095) using the 3300 as a pre-amp, and the difference is stunning both for 2 channel and 5 channel sound.
If you want to upgrade slowly, then I suggest you look at getting a 2,3 or 5 channel power amp and then upgrading to a processor when you can afford it.
Rotel do a good pre-processor combo for £1,700 and there is a review here... http://www.homecinemachoice.com/testbench/frame.html?http://www.homecinemachoice.com/testbench/PowerAmps/Rotel/RotelRSP-976RMB-1075.shtml
Do you think the pre-amp stage of the STRDB930 will be good enough to benefit from a good power amp though?
I can get the Rotel RB985 for £500. Is/was it any good?
lovegroova
04-10-2001, 13:19
Whilst the pre-amps in the Sony are not perhaps the best, I would imagine that it is the power amp section that is the weakest part of pretty much any AV Amp/Receiver and they would all benefit from better amplification.
I refer back to my case where there is a vast difference between using the power amp section of my 3300 and the Rotel.
Also, you are then in a position to save up and get a better processor at a later stage without having to shell out for amplification again. It is certainly my intention to sell the 3300 and get a proper pre-processor when I can afford it.
There is a review of the Rotel 985 at Homecinemachoice - 4 1/2 stars and a best buy. I think £500 may be a bit too much if it's second hand though.
Originally posted by bruboy
OK. A lot to take in there - thanks guys!
The amp upstairs is indeed just the 2-channel TAF940 which I'm very pleased with.
I'd love to partner it up to the M3s but I need their bass for the A/V as I'm lacking a sub at the moment so the MX2s will do for now.
How easy would it be to set the TAF940 up to power the fronts downstairs with the STRDB930 powering the centre and rears?
I can see myself getting ******** off pretty quick with having to mess about balancing the volume controls on the two amps every time I want to watch a movie...
Hmmm.
Everyone, including me, is agreed that the Alpha 7SE wipes the floor with the 715 in stereo playback!
So, in terms of upgrading the the A/V amp how much would I need to spend to get good stereo performance (presuming my Alpha 7SE is providing the input)? Is it possible!? Would something like the Rotel RSX972 be up to the job? How much could I expect to get for my STRDB930 if I get rid of it?
Inevitably, if I started spending serious money on the amp then I'd have to look at upgrading the speakers to. The usual ever-increasing hi-fi circle!
I'm also wondering about the DVD player - in terms of picture quality how much improvement has there been since I bought the 715? Is it worth an upgrade?
Your thoughts would be appreciated again guys!
TIA
BruBoy
If you are upgrading, then do one component at a time.
Try the 7SE with the 930 and M3s, and see what you think first.
Then substitute the 930 for the 940 and guage what improvement you get.
It's only then that you'll really get a feel for the level of amplification you need to go to.
If you are happy with the TAF940, then you really don't need to start looking at expensive pre-power combos in order to match it.
Unfortunately, just swapping an amplifier is not a panacea for all problems you may have with a system - in many ways it's the least important component in the chain.
The old 40-30-20-10 rule for instance (40% of the budget on source, 30% on speakers, 20% on amp, and 10% on interconnects and speaker cable) - although you shouldn't be too strict in it's application, gives you some idea of where the priorities in a well balanced system will lie. This was coined as guidance for stereo systems, so you have to adjust accordingly when talking about AV systems (amps are dearer, more speakers required etc), but if spending £1000 or more on amplification, it may give you some idea of the sort of stuff you should be looking at to partner it.
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