View Full Version : Heat - No Oscars & Critical Reviews?!
Sandeep C.
08-11-2003, 15:31
Finally got the chance to relive one of my favourite films on DVD this afternoon, and I remembered why I loved Heat so much in the first place.
It's absolutely brilliant. But a couple of questions...First, how did this not get any Oscars?! Secondly, why the seemingly large critic backlash? The bank robbery scene is quite stunning, and the coffee shop scene is electric.
Definately one of the best films ever made IMHO. Let the opinions roll people...
father_christmas
08-11-2003, 15:37
Wasn't it a remake of LA takedown, maybe it just wasn't original enough for them:confused:
Great film though, Pacino is GOD !!
Yeah, it was father Xmas.
Although I was probably too young to fully appreciate it when it first came out, I remember finding large sections of it, well, a bit dull (but I was only about 16 I think).
However, have caught parts of it on numerous tv screenings since and have kept meaning to watch it again and re-evalutate.
BlueDwarf
08-11-2003, 16:12
Because it was tediously boring?
father_christmas
08-11-2003, 16:22
Originally posted by BlueDwarf
Because it was tediously boring?
How can anything starring both Rober De Niro and Al Pacino be boring ??
It had one of the best action scenes i have ever seen on film, great direction "Michael Mann" a good score.
It's definately in my top 10
:thumbs:
Originally posted by Sandeep C.
It's absolutely brilliant. But a couple of questions...First, how did this not get any Oscars?! Secondly, why the seemingly large critic backlash? The bank robbery scene is quite stunning, and the coffee shop scene is electric.
I love this film too. But with the best will in the world since when do the Oscars mean anything?
Also Michael Mann is not a critic's favourite - always dogged by "style over substance" accusations.
SeanValen
08-11-2003, 17:14
Heat reminds me of Blade Runner, Heat has become better after its' release, the ending of Heat reminds me of Blade Runner. I actually remmeber reading that in a dvd review, maybe dvd times review here a while ago.
Davester
08-11-2003, 17:45
I'd say this is probably my favourite de Niro Pacino film after the Goddather. Brilliant plot, visuals, acting, direction. I can't see how this was not rated. I have the R2 barebones and it is one of my most watched dvds.
Rik Booth
08-11-2003, 18:31
I love Heat, great for all the reasons above. I also know Michael Mann and a certain Bob De Niro, but I'm not biased, honest... :thumbs:
carlito8
08-11-2003, 18:47
An absolutely superb film starring two of the all time greats with an excellent soundtrack, I've loved it since I first saw it on its release (on my own :dork: Noone would go with me !)
The ending is one of my favourites as well, moby's music fits so well.
earl_roberts2002
08-11-2003, 22:47
Maybe the critics don't like it because it tries to hard or does a lot to make itself seem important?
The 'A LOS ANGELES CRIME SAGA' and stuff kinda work against it.
I personally love it though {Al's my fav actor after all**
One of my faves.
Oscars=bull****- Heat wasn't even nominated for anything. :brickwall
Mandrill
09-11-2003, 01:38
My best mate saw this when it was first released and told me it was rubbish so I didnt watch it untill last year.....
Fantastic movie IMO I really enjoyed it
cpheonix
11-01-2007, 13:26
Thought I'd resurrect this old thread as I saw Heat for the first time last night.
I'm probably the minority here, but did anyone else think that this film was just "ok"? Watching this film made me realise how over-rated Michael Mann is. Basically if you take away De Niro and Pacino, this is a very average film. Although I did enjoy the bank robbery scene!
Thought I'd resurrect this old thread as I saw Heat for the first time last night.
I'm probably the minority here, but did anyone else think that this film was just "ok"? Watching this film made me realise how over-rated Michael Mann is. Basically if you take away De Niro and Pacino, this is a very average film. Although I did enjoy the bank robbery scene!
I'm with you
thought it an enjoyable enough thriller, but v overrated (much like most of Mann's other films {Collateral excepted**)
SIMON ADEBISI
11-01-2007, 16:45
Thought I'd resurrect this old thread as I saw Heat for the first time last night.
I'm probably the minority here, but did anyone else think that this film was just "ok"? Watching this film made me realise how over-rated Michael Mann is. Basically if you take away De Niro and Pacino, this is a very average film. Although I did enjoy the bank robbery scene!
Its a very good very well made film but as you said if it wasnt for the actors in it there wouldnt have been half as much fuss. And the coffee shop scene is probably the most overrated scene ever.
Michael Mann paints with light and that's why he's been the most significant American film-maker of the last 20 years. I can still remember the sheer rush of seeing Heat in Leicester Square on its first day of release in the UK at a packed afternoon sitting, the audience held spell-bound in those pre-mobile phone days. That was probably DeNiro's last great performance, although he's was good again in Ronin. I find it hard to take seriously the opinions of viewers who find Heat, DeNiro and Pacino over-rated (IMHO).
cpheonix
11-01-2007, 17:39
Quite an insulting statement to make about not taking people seriously who think Heat is over-rated. Its like me saying anyone whoever thinks Michael Mann has been the most significant American film-maker in the last 20yrs is a little cuckoo. I can think of at least 10 others better than him.
The rush about Heat, especially at the time, was because of those 2 actors never sharing the same screen before. Take them away and you have your sub-standard thriller. Nothing great about the direction or cinematography - in fact, that whole De Niro scene with his love interest on the balcony near the beginning looked extremely fake and very poorly done. Additionally, how cheesy was the ending with them holding hands?
Don't get me wrong, I also hold De Niro and Pacino as 2 of the finest living actors and they really did lift this film higher then most thrillers.
I find Heat an outstanding film. Its an experience I always look forward to in my viewing schedule. If you took the top two performances away from any film I think many would suffer, but I honestly believe that Heat is without doubt a true masterpiece.
Each to their own of course.
Vulcan101
11-01-2007, 18:37
Heat is worth watching simply for the bank robbery, though I found Pacino's to be a bit "over shouty" compared to DeNiro's nicely understated yet intense performance.
Definitely in my top 5 heist movies of all time
Heat is a great movie, i can watch this movie all day long espeically the bank robbery scene.
with Rober De Niro and Al Pacino starring, how can you g wrong excellent movie, one of the best!
Heat IMHO one of the best movies ever, the DVD I have is so-so in terms of extras but I cant wait for a high-def version. Just need to get a HD player for the xbox and check there is a Hd-DVD version of it too.
The original movie is really good too btw.
PlexShaw
11-01-2007, 19:18
And the coffee shop scene is probably the most overrated scene ever.
:eek: :nuts: :cuckoo:
Welshlad
11-01-2007, 19:29
Dull, dull, dull, dull, dull!
Unimpressed the first time i ever saw it and Bored to death when i watched it again second time to see if it improved with age.
Runs for about an hour too long and really isnt deserving of the praise it gets IMO
I love it. But consider Mann to be perhaps the most overrated director currently working. His cult seems to get bigger as his films get worse and it's been a downward spiral from Heat to Miami Vice, surely a low he can't possibly undercut.
I love it. But consider Mann to be perhaps the most overrated director currently working. His cult seems to get bigger as his films get worse and it's been a downward spiral from Heat to Miami Vice, surely a low he can't possibly undercut.
Miami Vice is very much a film that splits opinion down the middle but I thought it was a great film and for me, Mann's never made a bad movie (i know Ali has it's detractors but I enjoyed it) After watching Last Of The Mohicans again a few days ago, it just went to reaffirm how great and stylish a director he is and one of my favourites working today.
Looking forward to his superhero film with Will Smith, certainly sounds interesting.
Quite an insulting statement to make about not taking people seriously who think Heat is over-rated. Its like me saying anyone whoever thinks Michael Mann has been the most significant American film-maker in the last 20yrs is a little cuckoo. I can think of at least 10 others better than him.
Sorry to hurt your feelings. If you can name ten (or even 5) other American film-makers of the last 20 years who are better than Michael Mann, then I will take you seriously.
SIMON ADEBISI
11-01-2007, 21:09
:eek: :nuts: :cuckoo:
Each to their own. I think Pacino and De Niro are fantastic actors but apart from the novelty of seeing them together on the screen can you tell me why exactly this scene is supposedly so fantastic??
Was watching it again the other night. Gets better with each viewing. Because of Pacino and De Niro, people tend to forget great performances by the rest of the ensemble. Particularly Kilmer, Voight and Judd.
I heard they're making a video game based on the film too.
the LA Takedown endings better, if they'd have stuck that on heat it would have been a classic. As it is it's very good.
PlexShaw
11-01-2007, 23:23
Each to their own. I think Pacino and De Niro are fantastic actors but apart from the novelty of seeing them together on the screen can you tell me why exactly this scene is supposedly so fantastic??
I don't really think the onus is on me to make the case for why it is such classic scene, when you have already declared it "the most overrated scene ever". Can you tell me why exactly you think this (IMO) expertly crafted and superbly acted scene is so overrated?
snowball
11-01-2007, 23:28
finally caught this film on a recent TV showing. I really did enjoy it, but i think its far too long for its own good.
I don't really think the onus is on me to make the case for why it is such classic scene, when you have already declared it "the most overrated scene ever". Can you tell me why exactly you think this (IMO) expertly crafted and superbly acted scene is so overrated?
I think the Restaurant encounter was excellent. Pacino is the best Shouter in the business, bar none :notworthy although I can't remember if there was any shouting in that scene though.
No shouting. Just two legends playing off each other perfectly.
He does shout when he goes to see that black guy though.."Did you fall in love last night?" :lol: :notworthy
And also... "Cos she's gotta GREEEAAT ASS, and you've got your head all the way up it!" :lol: :clap:
What a film!!
baloobas
12-01-2007, 00:56
Its a very good very well made film but as you said if it wasnt for the actors in it there wouldnt have been half as much fuss. And the coffee shop scene is probably the most overrated scene ever.
I think the point of this thread was to wonder why Heat was so underrated when it was released so when you say "there wouldn't have been half as much fuss" I'm not sure what "fuss" you are talking about.
Also the coffee shop scene is so often referred to because it's the first time DeNiro/Pacino appeared together on screen and not because of the power of the scene or the way it was shot etc.
It is what is is and it works perfectly but to call it overrated is to miss the point slightly as to why people talk about it in the first place.
For my money, Heat is an absolute masterpiece that actually gets better the more you watch it but then again, I really liked Miami Vice so what do I know ?.
I think the point of this thread was to wonder why Heat was so underrated when it was released so when you say "there wouldn't have been half as much fuss" I'm not sure what "fuss" you are talking about.
Critically underrated or not, there was a LOT of fuss when this movie came out and it was all about how DeNiro and Pacino had never shared screen time together. It was MASSIVELY talked about for that reason. I actually remember Chris Evans on the breakfast show on Radio 1 saying something like "So they finally get DeNiro and Pacino on screen together and what do they cast them as? A 'cop' and a 'robber'!"
I went to see it in the cinema and it was too long and really quite an uninspiringly average movie. It's just a very tired plot, with some slightly fancy moments (like the running battle in the streets, but even that just seems ludicrously superhero-esque) but yeah, otherwise nothing special.
The scene in the coffee shop is massively overrated. There are many other examples of two great actors talking together with powerful dialogue, The Godfather is actually littered with them, but because so much of this film is quite stale that scene leaps out a bit more...and of course it's DeNiro and Pacino having screen time together *shocker*.
Personally I'd have said Hopper and Walken facing off in True Romance is a far better sort of scene (and also the only really good thing in that film, but that's for another flaming :p).
the LA Takedown endings better, if they'd have stuck that on heat it would have been a classic. As it is it's very good.
I tried to watch that too but, like Manhuter, I just found it felt cramped and 'small'. Could you spoilerise the LA Takedown ending as I'd be interested to know what it was.
Cheers.
PlexShaw
12-01-2007, 09:04
For my money, Heat is an absolute masterpiece that actually gets better the more you watch it
Absolutely.
All this talk about the film being "average" or the coffee shop scene being "massively overrated" (with a bolded "is" beforehand, no less) is bordering on depressing. :(
Absolutely.
All this talk about the film being "average" or the coffee shop scene being "massively overrated" (with a bolded "is" beforehand, no less) is bordering on depressing. :(
Don't pick on my bolded "is": she's very sensitive. :eek:
Probably for the best we don't agree Plex. I wouldn't like to start smelling brimstone and hear the noise of approaching hooves marking the apocalypse! ;)
Anybody know where i can purchase L.A Takedown on dvd, seems to be deleted.
fantastic film that i could watch over and over.
the play between De nero and pachino is just fantastic!
Well it's been a whilse since I saw LA Takedown but from memory (correct me if I'm wrong) it ended.......
with De Niro's character not getting the girl to come away with him. Left heartbroken he has no desire to escape and so his decision to go to the hotel makes a lot more sense. I also think he gets shot by the snitch and the Pacino character finds him dying (though not 100% about that.) There was then a couple of great lines of dialogue with Pacino's character saying something like "How did you fall for this, you were away you were free" and the comeback "I'd nowhere to go, nothing to do"
It just felt a much more sensible ending than Heat where he gets the girl and the money and yet goes back into harms way.
Sandeep C.
12-01-2007, 10:15
Wow, I don't even remember starting this thread lol. Still one of the best films ever IMO.
Sandeep C.
12-01-2007, 10:18
Well it's been a whilse since I saw LA Takedown but from memory (correct me if I'm wrong) it ended.......
with De Niro's character not getting the girl to come away with him. Left heartbroken he has no desire to escape and so his decision to go to the hotel makes a lot more sense. I also think he gets shot by the snitch and the Pacino character finds him dying (though not 100% about that.) There was then a couple of great lines of dialogue with Pacino's character saying something like "How did you fall for this, you were away you were free" and the comeback "I'd nowhere to go, nothing to do"
It just felt a much more sensible ending than Heat where he gets the girl and the money and yet goes back into harms way.
That was the point, no? He had the girl, a successful bank heist, the money. He was sorted. But his desire for vengence sent him back and led to his downfall. Linking back to the whole "Don't get into anything that you can't bail from in X minutes, if you spot the heat around the corner" (I don't remember the exact quote, but something like that).
I like it.
It's a little too long, but other than that, I find it hard to fault.
IMO, it has one of the best heist/shootouts ever filmed and is a perfect example of Mann's 'no ********' way of filming that captures the violence & tension without resorting to stunts/fancy camera work/ over the top soundtracks etc..
It also has Tom Sizemore in, who is generally fantastic to watch in whatever he does*.
*Pearl Harbour aside.
That was the point, no? He had the girl, a successful bank heist, the money. He was sorted. But his desire for vengence sent him back and led to his downfall. Linking back to the whole "Don't get into anything that you can't bail from in X minutes, if you spot the heat around the corner" (I don't remember the exact quote, but something like that).
but it just doesn't make sense in Heat, he's this cool collected dude, he's even walked away mid robbery when he's sensed somethings up and yet he willingly walks into a trap. we know he's tired of this game, he wants out and he's off to setup home with his beloved. it just doesn't make sense that he'd go back, it's not in his character either before meeting the girl and certainly not after.
cpheonix
12-01-2007, 11:41
Sorry to hurt your feelings. If you can name ten (or even 5) other American film-makers of the last 20 years who are better than Michael Mann, then I will take you seriously.
Its cool, you didnt hurt my feelings.
But there's Spielberg, Cameron, Eastwood, Altman, Coppola, Coen brothers, Lynch, Croneberg, Malick, Scorsese. Taking me seriously now? The only film I've rated of Mann's is Last of the Mohicans, but I would not call that influential or inspiring film-making.
Heat is ok, but nowhere near a masterpiece as people are saying. And that coffee scene IS over-rated. I was watching it and thinking how bland and cliched the dialogue was. Only De Niro and Pacino made it interesting because of their acting abilites and it was the first time they've been on screen together. And please, who didnt think it was cheesy the way they held hands at the end?
but it just doesn't make sense in Heat, he's this cool collected dude, he's even walked away mid robbery when he's sensed somethings up and yet he willingly walks into a trap. we know he's tired of this game, he wants out and he's off to setup home with his beloved. it just doesn't make sense that he'd go back, it's not in his character either before meeting the girl and certainly not after.
Arghhh ! That's exactly why DeNiro is considered one of, if not the outstanding actors of modern cinema.
When Neil is driving with his girl to the airport he's free, he knows it and we know it, but he has unfinished business - then he gets the call which tells him where Waingrow is and you can see the reasoning going on in his head in the wordless scene of him continuing to drive while he concludes that there is only one option available to a man like him, it's so perfectly in character that he would go back to finish the business. That's what I call acting !
Coppola
He said last twenty years! None of Coppola's output in the last two decades comes even close in quality to the likes of Heat.
Its cool, you didnt hurt my feelings.
But there's Spielberg, Cameron, Eastwood, Altman, Coppola, Coen brothers, Lynch, Croneberg, Malick, Scorsese. Taking me seriously now? The only film I've rated of Mann's is Last of the Mohicans, but I would not call that influential or inspiring film-making.
I agree that most of those directors you mention are contenders for great American film-maker, though Cronenberg is Canadian, as far as I know. Eastwood is a journeyman director, sometimes OK when he gets a good script. But Cameron ? You're not seriously suggesting that the guy who directed Titanic is a better director than Michael Mann ?
But Cameron ? You're not seriously suggesting that the guy who directed Titanic is a better director than Michael Mann ?
Now come on. He is responsible for some magnificent movies. I hate Titanic but other than Piranha II the rest of his output top draw entertainment IMO.
Cameron is a great director. In terms of filmmaking...well Mann's clichés are as thick as Cameron's schmaltz if you're comparing across films.
But as a visionary I'd certainly put Cameron way ahead of Mann. Regardless of possible historical inaccuracies, of its terrible love story, of really anything else you can lay against it, Titanic is really an impressive piece of work in terms of the use of effects and the footage of the Titanic itself. As an achievement of one director you can't really fault it on those terms (and no, I'm not a fan).
But you can add in True Lies, T2 and the Abyss (not Aliens as we're out by 2 weeks from 1986 being 20 ago) and the way those films are done...yes I think he's a better director than Mann.
He said last twenty years! None of Coppola's output in the last two decades comes even close in quality to the likes of Heat.
Sofia?
I'm suprised noone's mentioned Collateral yet.
I think that's another goodun from Mann.. The opening sequence in the cab is fantastic, nicely taking its time to set a scene, and it has some great action sequences in it. Like Heat, this also has some great no-nonsense shooting scenes that Mann does so well.
It also has an awsome soundtrack.
Edit: - the only thing that really detracted from the film for me, was the way the lawyer was the last victim.. That was a little trite..
cpheonix
12-01-2007, 12:12
I agree that most of those directors you mention are contenders for great American film-maker, though Cronenberg is Canadian, as far as I know. Eastwood is a journeyman director, sometimes OK when he gets a good script. But Cameron ? You're not seriously suggesting that the guy who directed Titanic is a better director than Michael Mann ?
Eastwood is a journeyman director? Now you're having a laugh! The guy's won an oscar for best director FFS! And Cameron has done some of the best action films of any generation. Whatever you say about the guy, he's a brilliant visual film-maker. If Titanic didnt become the biggest ever film and not have that Celine Dion song, the majority of people would hold this film as a masterpiece.
I agree that most of those directors you mention are contenders for great American film-maker, though Cronenberg is Canadian, as far as I know. Eastwood is a journeyman director, sometimes OK when he gets a good script. But Cameron ? You're not seriously suggesting that the guy who directed Titanic is a better director than Michael Mann ?
to be fair, your original statement was:
Michael Mann paints with light and that's why he's been the most significant American film-maker of the last 20 years.
In terms of significance, Cameron would excel Mann. T2 changed everything about special effects, forced changes to Bond after True Lies was released, turned Alien into a franchise and dull as it is, Titanic made $1 billion world-wide. (I'm not his love child)
Heat, is great. Mann's best by a long way. There was way too much hype regarding Pacino and De Niro, but little shared screen time, which may have caused a back-lash.
It is one of those films which do improve the more times you see it. The cast is amazing. Not so much the central characters, but the background actors like William Fichtner, Tom Noonan, Danny Trejo, Jeremy Piven, President Palmer etc.. It may be long, but I wouldn't say it was boring in any places.
EDIT- Beaten by everyone regarding Cameron. Need to type faster :(
To be honest, it's painful to me to read somebody comparing Cameron with Michael Mann, so we'll have to agree to differ. I don't think Mann is physically capable of directing movies like Abyss, True Lies and Titanic, so it's chalk and cheese.
Edit: - the only thing that really detracted from the film for me, was the way the lawyer was the last victim.. That was a little trite..
The cell phone running out of battery/no reception at the crucial time was even triter! :)
The cell phone running out of battery/no reception at the crucial time was even triter! :)
Well, yeah.. I think after they crashed the taxi, Mann must've had a stroke or something, because it's like someone else took over..
the shot where Cruise magically appears on the rear of the train had me screaming at the TV.
Eastwood is a journeyman director? Now you're having a laugh! The guy's won an oscar for best director FFS!
So did Ron Howard - does that make him a great director in your view ?
Cameron is in a different league from Mann. MM clearly loves Cameron too, that's why he remade Terminator 2 as Collateral. Of course, you can understand Big Arnie when, after shooting the near-unkillable bad guy, he says 'we haven't much time'. But when Foxx does much the same standing over a shot-in-the-head Cruise, rather than plug him again, it's comically bad.
Eastwood is a journeyman director? Now you're having a laugh! The guy's won an oscar for best director FFS!
He's won two, the second of which gets my vote for worst Oscar decision ever. 10 better American directors than Mann is easy, but I'd never have added Eastwood to the list. One of them has made the worst boxing movie of all time though, and it's a toss-up which one! (as Million Dollar Baby is near the bottom of my all time worst 10, I'd vote Eastwood)
If Titanic didnt become the biggest ever film and not have that Celine Dion song, the majority of people would hold this film as a masterpiece.
I'd agree with that.
If Titanic didnt become the biggest ever film and not have that Celine Dion song, the majority of people would hold this film as a masterpiece.
I'm not sure I understand this comment. Because it's the "biggest ever film", the majority of people don't hold this film as a masterpiece ?
By the way, if we were using the majority of people's views as a standard to judge films, how do you feel they would rate David Lynch's work ?
He means a majority on here, not 'the masses', presumably.
Oh and cheers to everyone who feels it's fine to talk about Collateral in a Heat thread without spoiler tags. Not that I was about to watch it but maybe some wouldn't like to have read a few of the posts in here?
cpheonix
12-01-2007, 13:32
I'm not sure I understand this comment. Because it's the "biggest ever film", the majority of people don't hold this film as a masterpiece ?
By the way, if we were using the majority of people's views as a standard to judge films, how do you feel they would rate David Lynch's work ?
Put it this way, if something is overplayed - like a song or film - people start to hate and resent it. When I first saw Titanic with a bunch of uni mates, they all came out in awe of it. Its only when it started staying on the screens for yonks that over the years they've become to hate it.
and who's using using the majority of people's views as a standard to judge films? But David Lynch is certainly unqiue
And yeah, Collateral is another over-rated film. I may need to watch Heat again to see if it changes my view but to be honest, not sure if I could sit through it again - probably have to wait a good few years!
OT a bit but 'Titanic' is an annoyingly bad film because it's really, really badly written. No amount of swirling cameras and gorgeous production design can disguise the risible dialogue and cardboard characters.
Put it this way, if something is overplayed - like a song or film - people start to hate and resent it. When I first saw Titanic with a bunch of uni mates, they all came out in awe of it. Its only when it started staying on the screens for yonks that over the years they've become to hate it.
One other reason could be that it's a poor film, though you are of course entitled to regard it as a masterpiece. How did you feel about the ending which also had two lovers holding hands (until Jack lost his grip in the icy waters of the Atlantic) ? Cheesey for Michael Mann but unbearably poignant for James Cameron, perhaps...
Heat is a fantastic film, Mann's attention to detail and handling of so many top-drawer actors shows he is a master of his craft. Pacino is a little showy, but the back story created by Mann for his character had him taking the odd snort of charlie to keep sharp, which would account for his mood swings and unpredictability.
De Niro is fantastically understated, you never doubt him as a professional thief, he is calm and ruthlessly business-like. His character mirrors Pacino's in terms of obsession with his work. However, you can see the cracks forming in his shell, both with his relationship with the graphic designer lady, and in his sympathy towards Val Kilmer's Chris and his long-suffering wife. The flipside to this emotionality is unfortunately his undoing as he lets revenge get the better of him, and detours to execute Waingrow.
Technically the film is astounding, it shows bright sunlight, dusk, dawn and the glow of L.A.'s nightscape, yet never feels visually disjointed. The use of sound in the robbery scene is fantastic, each gunshot acting like a punch to the forehead, as it would in real life (I believe Mann insisted on real rounds being fired, with live capture of the audio).
Despite the use of elegaic music and dramatic lighting, not once do you doubt the realism of the piece, and you simply do not see the actors. Each character is well-formed and based in absolute reality, and each has varying relationships with their surrounding characters.
baloobas
12-01-2007, 18:58
Heat is a fantastic film, Mann's attention to detail and handling of so many top-drawer actors shows he is a master of his craft. Pacino is a little showy, but the back story created by Mann for his character had him taking the odd snort of charlie to keep sharp, which would account for his mood swings and unpredictability.
De Niro is fantastically understated, you never doubt him as a professional thief, he is calm and ruthlessly business-like. His character mirrors Pacino's in terms of obsession with his work. However, you can see the cracks forming in his shell, both with his relationship with the graphic designer lady, and in his sympathy towards Val Kilmer's Chris and his long-suffering wife. The flipside to this emotionality is unfortunately his undoing as he lets revenge get the better of him, and detours to execute Waingrow.
Technically the film is astounding, it shows bright sunlight, dusk, dawn and the glow of L.A.'s nightscape, yet never feels visually disjointed. The use of sound in the robbery scene is fantastic, each gunshot acting like a punch to the forehead, as it would in real life (I believe Mann insisted on real rounds being fired, with live capture of the audio).
Despite the use of elegaic music and dramatic lighting, not once do you doubt the realism of the piece, and you simply do not see the actors. Each character is well-formed and based in absolute reality, and each has varying relationships with their surrounding characters.
Ah back on track, well said sir.................
Shingster
12-01-2007, 20:13
I'm having a grerat laugh reading a thread where Cameron and Mann are compared and people are accusing Michael Mann of being the one who makes clichéd, cheesy, overlong films! That has got to be the most ironic thing I have ever heard. :D
Oh and as much as I love Terrence Malick's work, he's made 2 films in the last 20yrs (it's actually almost in the last 30yrs!), one of which is considered one of his weakest films.
The use of sound in the robbery scene is fantastic, each gunshot acting like a punch to the forehead, as it would in real life (I believe Mann insisted on real rounds being fired, with live capture of the audio).
Real blanks. Mann heard the initial mix with an fx track that had been created in post production. That got vetoed straight away and was replaced with the production audio. It sounds as extreme as it does due to the echo caused by so many surrounding buildings.
I'm having a grerat laugh reading a thread where Cameron and Mann are compared and people are accusing Michael Mann of being the one who makes clichéd, cheesy, overlong films! That has got to be the most ironic thing I have ever heard. :D
Oh and as much as I love Terrence Malick's work, he's made 2 films in the last 20yrs (it's actually almost in the last 30yrs!), one of which is considered one of his weakest films.
To side-step Heat awhile (again !), Malick - much as I love Scorsese -is probably the American film-maker who comes close to Mann's greatness. The Thin Red Line is enough to have made in the last 30 years and for it to stand out like a burning lamp from most of the other things being produced. I was haunted by the voice-overs in TRL and wondered where Malick had picked up that particular weary but clear and wise tone - then I came across it again when reading Tolstoy's Sebastopol Sketches ("what is that quality in nature..."). Sorry to go O/T, but sometimes thinking of one great film leads you on to others...
cpheonix
13-01-2007, 11:12
To side-step Heat awhile (again !), Malick - much as I love Scorsese -is probably the American film-maker who comes close to Mann's greatness. The Thin Red Line is enough to have made in the last 30 years and for it to stand out like a burning lamp from most of the other things being produced. I was haunted by the voice-overs in TRL and wondered where Malick had picked up that particular weary but clear and wise tone - then I came across it again when reading Tolstoy's Sebastopol Sketches ("what is that quality in nature..."). Sorry to go O/T, but sometimes thinking of one great film leads you on to others...
Looks like we agree on something - I too am a big fan of The Thin Red Line. Great to see Cavelziel and Brody's careers go on from this.
Back to Heat, I never understood why De Niro's character would hire some psycho for the beginning heist in the first place. That to me doesnt make sense if he's a mastermind criminal - or did I miss something?
Looks like we agree on something - I too am a big fan of The Thin Red Line. Great to see Cavelziel and Brody's careers go on from this.
Back to Heat, I never understood why De Niro's character would hire some psycho for the beginning heist in the first place. That to me doesnt make sense if he's a mastermind criminal - or did I miss something?
Wasn't Waingrow a last minute replacement or something like that ? - I could be wrong though.
Sandeep C.
18-05-2008, 11:05
Another bump for this thread. Finally saw L.A. Takedown this morning. Very err...interesting! It's a bit hard to take it seriously, it looks and feels like an 80's movie. Gotta love the music! :nuts: But loved spotting all the scenes they literally copied over as well as the dialogue. As someone mentioned earlier, it's incredible what a great cast can do. De Niro's character in Takedown is just scary. Here (http://www.dangerousuniverse.com/2006/fwr/1-55.asp) is an interesting link, as well as this (http://www.theedge.abelgratis.co.uk/filmsgl/latakedown.htm) one.
Heat is a fantastic film, Mann's attention to detail and handling of so many top-drawer actors shows he is a master of his craft. Pacino is a little showy, but the back story created by Mann for his character had him taking the odd snort of charlie to keep sharp, which would account for his mood swings and unpredictability.
De Niro is fantastically understated, you never doubt him as a professional thief, he is calm and ruthlessly business-like. His character mirrors Pacino's in terms of obsession with his work. However, you can see the cracks forming in his shell, both with his relationship with the graphic designer lady, and in his sympathy towards Val Kilmer's Chris and his long-suffering wife. The flipside to this emotionality is unfortunately his undoing as he lets revenge get the better of him, and detours to execute Waingrow.
Technically the film is astounding, it shows bright sunlight, dusk, dawn and the glow of L.A.'s nightscape, yet never feels visually disjointed. The use of sound in the robbery scene is fantastic, each gunshot acting like a punch to the forehead, as it would in real life (I believe Mann insisted on real rounds being fired, with live capture of the audio).
Despite the use of elegaic music and dramatic lighting, not once do you doubt the realism of the piece, and you simply do not see the actors. Each character is well-formed and based in absolute reality, and each has varying relationships with their surrounding characters.
I fully agree with the above, like most of Mann's work visually it's just stunning. The final scene is one of my favourites from any film ever. Moby's "God Moving Over The Face Of The Waters" is so haunting over the backdrop of Pacino and De Niro. Brilliant film.
I missed this thread first time around.
:lol: at someone saying Eastwood was better because he won an Oscar. For a while he was better than Scorcese then (and probably still is, as he leads 2-1).
Heat is a great film. A fantastic ensemble cast, with Pacino and DeNiro as icing on the cake. A great script and, as someone pointed out earlier, characters that are well filled out, with interaction that seems realistic. I love the scene where Pacino is standing with all the team following the red herring, and he suddenly realises the bad guys are watching them.
Having said all of that, a cursory look down the list of best picture Oscars, along with what they were nominated with, leads me to believe they mean less than nothing.
For me, Heat was DeNiro's last REALLY good role.
Stuff anyone else's opinion, I love it. If you disagree, so be it, it's an opinion.
bruce-leroy
18-05-2008, 16:21
When I went to the cinema to watch Heat, I was completely mesmerised from beginning to end. It really is alarming how De Niro has not had a really great role since the mid nineties.
Spectre07
18-05-2008, 17:16
Whilst i like Heat, I think films like Manhunter and Collateral are much better films. I think Mann does a better job when he's working with one or two stars. Heat is padded out with stars and I think the film suffers for it. I can't explain it but the former two feels more tense and tighter, whilst Heat seems 'diluted' to me.
AKPiggott
18-05-2008, 17:32
This is confusing, shouldn't this be in the other movie forum?
Anyway, Heat is excellent and deserves much of the praise it gets. Mann is slightly overrated though, wasn't impressed with Manhunter and recently tried to watch Last of the Mohicans but I just lost interest and turned it off half-way through.
For me, Heat was DeNiro's last REALLY good role.
Not sure if I agree with this or not, depends on if it came out after Casino.
Scarface_Joker
18-05-2008, 17:51
This needs to come out on Blu-Ray.
Despite having a hearing difficulty and therefore not bothered about fancy sound options - I would love to hear the bank heist in full uncompressed audio. A masterpeice of visual and audio thrills.
Martin Ball
19-05-2008, 19:11
Agreed. The moment this comes out on bluray I'm going to be all over it.
Fantastic film. Yes, it's your usual run-of-the-mill thriller film but it's lifted into the greatness by two amazing lead actors who both give some of their best performances.
Secondly, Michael Mann. The film is just so beautifully shot it makes me wwant to keep revisiting it just to watch L.A. and the brilliant use of light.
Then again I also like Collateral and Miami Vice, although they are not in the same league as Heat. There is just something about them that just makes them so watchable even though they do go on a bit and most directors would have editied them down, but Mann just shoots them so well you just don't care - you just want to spend every second in his world.
This thread is hilarious, if only for the apparent suggestion that Titanic would be viewed as some kind of masterpiece if it weren't for film snobbery. Heat left me rather cold, which disappointed me as I really, really wanted to love it and I'm a big Pacino and De Niro fan, but I generally don't enjoy Mann's films :(
anephric
20-05-2008, 13:44
When I saw Heat in an empty cinema, I thought it was absolutely ******* amazing and I was buzzing for days after - Mann's films definitely diminish immeasurably on home-viewing formats and no amount of BluRaying or projecting redresses the balance. That said, I was slightly distracted by Pacino's big fat slice of ham, but not too much.
When I watched Heat again on DVD, I really couldn't get past Pacino - he's awful in this, just awful. A carcrash of a performance that the film can't escape. It just didn't seem like the same film I saw theatrically.
snowball
20-05-2008, 19:04
When I watched Heat again on DVD, I really couldn't get past Pacino - he's awful in this, just awful. A carcrash of a performance that the film can't escape. It just didn't seem like the same film I saw theatrically.
:eek: How could you not like Pacino in this. Although undoubtedly I think De Niro's performance is better in the movie, Pacino is also very, very good.
Although every time I watch the movie, I couldnt help but think De Niro would have been better as the 'good guy' i.e. Cop, and Pacino more suited to play the villain. ala Godfather, Scarface etc etc.
I don't get Michael Mann, I find his flicks terribly boring :shrug:
Miami Vice, Collateral, Heat and The Last of the Mohicans bored me sensless (with the exception of the odd scene here and there).
However, I do quite like The Keep and The Insider :)
SIMON ADEBISI
20-05-2008, 19:52
Last Of The Mohicans is one of my faves. Love it.
Last Of The Mohicans is one of my faves. Love it.
Bah, it's not apache on the Keep :)
SIMON ADEBISI
20-05-2008, 20:04
Boom boom. Ya the Keep rules but Mohicans just rocked. Especially the last 10 mins :notworthy
DarioMann
22-05-2008, 09:35
And please, who didnt think it was cheesy the way they held hands at the end?
I love HEAT's last shot,it's so beautifully framed and haunting with this great Moby music...one of my fav shots in this very good film,really!
And it is ONLY shot where the two characters share the same frame together!!!
A really clever direction from Mann because these two characters could be together ONLY if one of them was dead or in jail.;)
Most people think that Mann's best films are THE INSIDER and HEAT but i like all his films,really...
anephric
22-05-2008, 13:22
No, they share the frame during the coffee shop sequence too; you just get treated to Mann framing the backs of heads immaculately in over-the-shoulder shots. Same deal at the end when they hold hands - you just see the back of Pacino's head.
Heat's in my top 5, as is Manhunter. Absolutely love it, but none of the later films seem to have the golden touch so I'd say Miami Vice is the one I least like.
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