Sony BDP-S1 Blu-ray Disc Player

[Dan]

The Sony BDP-S1 Blu-ray Disc Player is up for pre-order on the Sony US site here (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?sssdmh=dm11.84362&ProductSKU=BDPS1&Dept=tvvideo&CategoryName=hav_bluraydiscsub&dcmp=bluray_email&hqs=blurayplayer_preorder)

Price $ 999.95

Available on or about August 15th.

Can't see me buying one at that price.

[Johnr]

So I can pay $500 for a HD-DVD player or $1000 for a Blu Ray player :thinking:

Do Sony actually look at the market :wave:

[thescrounger]

Seems far too expensive compared to HD-DVD.

[Grandmaster]

So I can pay $500 for a HD-DVD player or $1000 for a Blu Ray player :thinking:

Do Sony actually look at the market :wave:

Sony believe that the high-end early adopting customer can be fleeced at whatever price point they see fit. They obviously don't see too much of an impact marketing-wise with HD-DVD being half the price when the target market is so small to begin with.

Sony assumes that the early adopter will want the best kit at any cost, regardless of the competition. Of course, the simple reality is that behind the higher capacity disks and larger bandwidth, it's highly unlikely that the human eye could tell the difference between a well-authored BluRay disk and a similar HD-DVD one.

That said, I'm sure Sony are indeed keeping an eye on the market. They have their relatively 'cheap' player coming out in the form of PS3 - that's where all their loss-leading cash has gone.

[ShakeyJake]

Just looking at the specs for this, this unit actually outputs at a full 1080p and the Toshiba HD-DVD drive only does 720p/1080i so it may be twice the price but you're getting a better picture (in theory).

I guess it's the same for TVs, one that shows a 1080p picture will cost a hell of a lot more than on that displays only 720p/1080i.

[thescrounger]

And how much visual difference is there really anyway?

[ShakeyJake]

I'll answer that when I get my 60" 1080p plasma :p

:edit: I guess it's like the old "how much real world performance does a ferrari give you over a lotus" arguement.

[camaj]

And how much visual difference is there really anyway?

Quite a lot acording to reports I've read.

Do Sony actually look at the market

Of course. Toshiba looked at the market and realised that they couldn't compete. It's a bit unfair to expect one company to slash their prices because a competitor is trying to undercut them

Looking at the Console market, MS haven't reduced their prices (Software or Hardware) despite being the most expensive on the market. At the end of the day you can only expect a company to charge a reasonable price for what you're getting.

[thescrounger]

Quite a lot acording to reports I've read.




I'd challenge the public to notice a difference though.

[Baz]

I'd challenge the public to notice a difference though.

It would be a staggering difference on my 108" projector screen.

[Grandmaster]

And how much visual difference is there really anyway?

The reality is that as true 1080p panels will be out of reach for years for any one other than the most truly hardcore, the point is moot. By the time it becomes relevant I daresay that HD-DVD will have 1080p output too.

And just as a progressive scan DVD player unpicks an interlaced image and converts it to progressive scan, so a decent flat panel does the same with an interlaced 1080i image. At the end of the day, 24 progressive 1920x1080 frames need to be displayed - both 1080i/30 and 1080p/60 have more than enough pixel bandwidth to do that.

Certainly, on my Pioneer panel, the 1080i picture from Xbox 360 actually looks better than the 720p one. So much for an interlaced picture looking worse than a progressive scan one :?:

Where 1080p output really has an advantage is with full frame 60fps output, but as the overwhelming majority of content will be 24fps only that advantage is again barely relevant.

[SimonI]

I'm intrigued by this 24 fps stuff that I've seen mentioned - is this an HD or a progressive scan thing, and does it mean that the old NTSC pull-down thing is no longer an issue? Does it mean that HD/progressive material can actually run at the same speed as projected film? Does this mean goodbye to PAL vs NTSC? (Etc.)

[studmeister]

will it not just be cheaper to buy a ps3?

[fattyboombatty]

Looking at the Console market, MS haven't reduced their prices (Software or Hardware) despite being the most expensive on the market. At the end of the day you can only expect a company to charge a reasonable price for what you're getting.

you can't compare the 360 with other consoles available right now. it is the only one of it's type and untill sony bring out the ps3, comparisons of pricing are pointless. the ps2 is in competition with the xbox and they cost exactly the same, regardless of whose "winning" that one.

unless sony come out with an aggresive price point for the ps3 at launch it won't make a damn bit of difference if it's got a BR player. that feature won't even matter till titles are readily available for it, anyway. which, i suspect, is why MS went ahead and released the 360 without HD-DVD, so they could get the jump on it's rival and get a console out at a very good price. sony are still arseing about with the BR feature on the ps3 delaying it's release and losing ground to MS all the time. if sony are intentionally waiting untill BR is a factor in their marketing strategy, then they've shot themselves in the foot.

i hope to god* that sony aren't going to apply the same maketing strategy from the games console market to the dvd market, cos' if they do they're in for a massive shock and massive losses. sony only came to dominate the games industry because of sega's incompetence and nintendo's arrogance. they were there at the right time and the competition handed it to them on a plate. that will not be happening in this case, HD-DVD is out first and at half the price. consumers are not going to ignore the fact that they can get "the next big thing" for half the price the other guy is asking. and that's exactly what consumers see first, the price. they don't care about specifications, they see HI-DEF and that's what matters. they care not who provides the HI-DEF just as long as they can have it faster and cheaper. BR is behind on both counts and it REALLY doesn't matter that BR may be slightly better, (if that's the case, i don't know.) slightly better isn't enough. sony found that out 20 years ago, it seems they may find out again.

faster and cheaper, faster and cheaper! that is how technology works in the consumer world. i see no reason why sony can dodge that.


*not really. i'm an atheist. it's just an expression. oh, the irony, eh!

[Germinator]

I really hope blue-ray fails to teach those ***** at sony a lesson.

[Roberto]

HD-DVD is out first and at half the price. consumers are not going to ignore the fact that they can get "the next big thing" for half the price the other guy is asking. and that's exactly what consumers see first, the price. they don't care about specifications, they see HI-DEF and that's what matters. they care not who provides the HI-DEF just as long as they can have it faster and cheaper. BR is behind on both counts and it REALLY doesn't matter that BR may be slightly better, (if that's the case, i don't know.) slightly better isn't enough. sony found that out 20 years ago, it seems they may find out again.

faster and cheaper, faster and cheaper! that is how technology works in the consumer world. i see no reason why sony can dodge that.


*not really. i'm an atheist. it's just an expression. oh, the irony, eh!Again people just don't get it. Everyone seems to think that because HD-DVD is out first and half the price that it's automatically better. But the first HD-DVD player is so bug ridden that that you'll stop short of throwing the damn thing out of the window. I don't recall the first DVD players taking over a minute to start up before even putting a disc in. And the testers saying they never managed to finish a movie yet without the player skipping or crashing altogether doesn't fill me with confidence.

I'd rather Sony take there time and get it right, the discs hold more data (means more content and better picture quality, multiple sound data streams without effecting picture quality) and if there players are more robust then i would consider it worth the money. Not only that but i doubt HD-DVD with be half the price in the long run. Yes the players are more expensive now, but that’s NOW, the future? Of course it'll get cheaper! The discs themselves are already showing to be about the same price point as HD-DVD.

All in all HD-DVD is a deeply inferior technology, how can people champion it??? People seem to think that only because HD-DVD will win because of the name. Sorry but i don't follow the 'Dixons' crowd and actually look at what the technology has to offer

[Spectre07]

I really hope blue-ray fails to teach those ***** at sony a lesson.Why such animosity towards sony, what did they do? murder your family> :shrug:

[SimonI]

All in all HD-DVD is a deeply inferior technology... Isn't that statement a little premature?

[AndyWilson]

All in all HD-DVD is a deeply inferior technology, how can people champion it??? People seem to think that only because HD-DVD will win because of the name. Sorry but i don't follow the 'Dixons' crowd and actually look at what the technology has to offer

So how many people will be able to tell the difference between watching an HD-DVD film and a blue-ray one in their living room? Or even care?

Which technology is superior has nothing to do with it. The difference in picture quality will be imperceptible. The deciding factors will be price, and availability of software. The PS3 might have the affect of pushing down the price of blu-ray and giving studios incentive to make more films available, or it might just be a niche player, not becoming mass-market until the format wars are over.

[thescrounger]

It's quite possible Bluray will be seen as some sort of PS3 only format. Like UMD. People will be inclined to shy away from it.

[ShakeyJake]

Was UMD ever meant to be an alternative to DVDs though? Basically it's a game cartidge that also had a few films released on it. Blu-ray/HD-DVD are both completely different.

[thescrounger]

Was UMD ever meant to be an alternative to DVDs though? Basically it's a game cartidge that also had a few films released on it. Blu-ray/HD-DVD are both completely different.

Yeah but if sony keep banging on about Bluray on the PS3, less informed people (the general public) might think it's specifically linked to PS3 like UMD and PSP.

[Roberto]

So how many people will be able to tell the difference between watching an HD-DVD film and a blue-ray one in their living room? Or even care?Yeah! HD-DVD is one that skipps ;)

Which technology is superior has nothing to do with it. The difference in picture quality will be imperceptible. The deciding factors will be price, and availability of software. The PS3 might have the affect of pushing down the price of blu-ray and giving studios incentive to make more films available, or it might just be a niche player, not becoming mass-market until the format wars are over.
Early adopters like us were the deciding factor on how DVD turned out. We complained to studios when PAN'N'SCAN came out. We threw our toys out of the pram when they tried to push DIVX, and moaned like a whore when non-anamorphic disc came out. All this before DVD went mainstream

We will notice the difference and it will be us who decide which format wins. And i can't believe we are choosing an inferior format

Isn't that statement a little premature?No, the limit on HD-DVD is 30Gb across 2-layers, blue ray is 100Gb across 4-layers. The specs have been set.

[ShakeyJake]

No, the limit on HD-DVD is 30Gb across 2-layers, blue ray is 100Gb across 4-layers. The specs have been set.

The machines can only decode at pretty much the same bit-rate though so although blu-ray may have more storage it's mainly means you can fit longer things on it. The studios may see it as "we can sell this tv series for more $$$ on a 4 HD-DVD boxset than a 1 BD amaray. kaching!"

[Spectre07]

Yeah but if sony keep banging on about Bluray on the PS3, less informed people (the general public) might think it's specifically linked to PS3 like UMD and PSP.Not once electrical stores have Blu-ray players on the shelves. I think comparing UMd and BR is misguided. It's completely different.

[lfletcher]

It's quite possible Bluray will be seen as some sort of PS3 only format. Like UMD. People will be inclined to shy away from it.
Nope. BR is nothing like UMD. UMD was a film format for a Sony only product. BR is a product for a whole bunch of manufacturers of which Sony arent even the biggest supporter, Panasonic is. Yes Sony are putting it into the PS3, which is probably why everyone thinks its a Sony product, and then jump on their anti-Sony bandwagon.

I'm no Sony fanboy, but people do give their reasons for supporting HD-DVD as its cheap and not made by Sony - so thats the format to pick. BR does have some advantages over HD-DVD imo, mainly the larger studio support and eventual larger capacity.

As long as the format war is over quickly, and the quality of High Def is good I dont really care who wins.

[irascian]

Quality seems to have little value in the marketplace. Joe Public took quite a time to appreciate the quality of DVD over VHS!

It does make me chuckle all this debate over HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray, given that what matters to the viewer is ultimately down to the quality of the disk itself. DVD is now mainstream but it's frightening how shoddy many of the releases are in terms of quality. Ten years on and we're still getting non-anamorphic disks in some cases or shoddy low-contrast copies. Compared with that what hope is there that any improvement in the technology will mean we get better disks.

My main DVD player is a Toshiba (their highest end player when I bought it). I'm very happy with it EXCEPT that it takes way too long to register a disk. Sounds like this seems to be part of their basic design if the problems have been carried over to HD-DVD.

I'd love to upgrade my system to the new Pioneer screen due out later this Summer (my existing Pioneer PD-502 has served me well but is starting to suffer colour tints in the corners - too many 4:3 DVDs seem to have caused burn-in - now I know why the stores always show those unwatchable stretched images) but it's hard to find a reason to do so with the mess that's been made over formats and resolutions.

I've no doubt Blu-Ray is the "superior" format in terms of technology, but I've bought so many Sony products in the past (four DAT players, two portable CD recorders, one digital video recorder, two laptops) that have been overpriced and every single one of them has decided to pack up the minute the one year warranty period is over. The ONLY exception to this rule is a Sony CRT portable TV. In one case I foolishly paid almost the cost of the unit when new to get it repaired outside of warranty only to have the same fault occur 4 months later and be told "repairs are only guaranteed for 3 months. You'll have to pay again". I 've a ton of horror stories to tell about Sony extended warranties ("we don't cover that", "call our premium rate line and be put on hold forever before we allow you to take advantage of the warranty we sold you" etc etc) that I won't buy another product of theirs again on principal.

[DK_UK]

Yep, I too have a list of Sony products as long as my arm which have failed on me, 2 Playstations, 1 DVD Burner, 1 X CD Hi Fi seperate, 1 X DVD player, all laser failures.

[kiran_mk2]

Yes, BR is probably the better format on paper due purely to the larger capacity, but we have seen no evidence of the 50gig discs yet, never mind the 100gig ones. I started off backing the BR standard, but I've seen how the lack of dual layer diascs will inevitably lead to a flurry of rereleases a year into BR's life and how Sony et al bent over backwards for Hollywood to have its evil way with it where as HD-DVD partially stood its ground. What's the point of a few extras gigs if the DRM takes away all your rights.

Also, something people may miss - do you really think the studios that are supporting both formats are going to master 2 separate versions ( a 30gig and a 50gig version)? I doubt it, so the extras capacity of BR is going to go to waste.

[thescrounger]

BR does have some advantages over HD-DVD imo, mainly the larger studio support.



It doesn't have more studio support, lets knock that myth on the head.

[Roberto]

Yep, I too have a list of Sony products as long as my arm which have failed on me, 2 Playstations, 1 DVD Burner, 1 X CD Hi Fi seperate, 1 X DVD player, all laser failures.
Jesus!! What do you do with your stuff!! 3-Years ago i bought a top-end Sony DVD player (735). Its fast, takes 5-seconds to boot up, and never skipped stopped or crashed on playing a genuine disc (It only refused to play a badly scrached DVD-R a couple of times). I've also got a 3-year old mid-range amp that pumps cracking DTS and DD5.1 and all my audio in my cinema setup goes through it. My PSP is almost a year old and it's fine. etc etc

Maybe you should look into the environment the equipment is in - is your place prone to dust?

[fattyboombatty]

Again people just don't get it.

which is EXACTLY my point! you seem fairly informed and are not in the same catogory as the "general public", who see things very differently.

i think in this case it is you, that isn't "getting it", regarding the overall picture(no pun intended.) :shrug:

[lfletcher]

It doesn't have more studio support, lets knock that myth on the head.OK, explain in what way its a myth?

The 7 major studios are apparently comprised of,

Sony/Columbia
MGM
Disney
Warner
Paramount
Fox
Universal

Of those HD-DVD currently has exclusive support by Universial, and also support by Warner and Paramount.

BR has exclusive support by the 2 Sony companys (Sony/Columbia, MGM), Fox and Disney. They also are supposed to have the same support that Warner and Paramount are giving HD-DVD.

So by my calculations HD-DVD has 3 of 7 studios and BR has 6 of 7. So I ask the question, how is that not greater studio support? Does Universal have a bigger back catalogue than Columbia, MGM, Fox and Disney combined then?

[DK_UK]

Jesus!! What do you do with your stuff!! 3-Years ago i bought a top-end Sony DVD player (735). Its fast, takes 5-seconds to boot up, and never skipped stopped or crashed on playing a genuine disc (It only refused to play a badly scrached DVD-R a couple of times). I've also got a 3-year old mid-range amp that pumps cracking DTS and DD5.1 and all my audio in my cinema setup goes through it. My PSP is almost a year old and it's fine. etc etc

Maybe you should look into the environment the equipment is in - is your place prone to dust?

Not that I can see.

First Playstation I purchased (1995) has yellow lines on the screen, it went back.

That replacement Playstation started to skip and not load certain disks after about 10 months, it eventually refused to play any disks after about 16 months.

I purchased a Sony 335 DVD player back in 2000, it worked fine up until about 10 months, it began to skip, I thought nothing of it as it was intermittant, the problem got worse and after about 15 months, the unit refused to spin any disks.

DVD burner began to work fine, after about 6 months the unit refused to burn disks, but could still read them OK.

I cant be bothered explaining the rest, basically, I avoid Sony stuff now, after being a loyal customer for many years.

[kiran_mk2]

OK, explain in what way its a myth?

The 7 major studios are apparently comprised of,

Sony/Columbia
MGM
Disney
Warner
Paramount
Fox
Universal

Of those HD-DVD currently has exclusive support by Universial, and also support by Warner and Paramount.

BR has exclusive support by the 2 Sony companys (Sony/Columbia, MGM), Fox and Disney. They also are supposed to have the same support that Warner and Paramount are giving HD-DVD.

So by my calculations HD-DVD has 3 of 7 studios and BR has 6 of 7. So I ask the question, how is that not greater studio support? Does Universal have a bigger back catalogue than Columbia, MGM, Fox and Disney combined then?

What about all the other non-US studios?

[Spectre07]

Not that I can see.

First Playstation I purchased (1995) has yellow lines on the screen, it went back.

That replacement Playstation started to skip and not load certain disks after about 10 months, it eventually refused to play any disks after about 16 months.

I purchased a Sony 335 DVD player back in 2000, it worked fine up until about 10 months, it began to skip, I thought nothing of it as it was intermittant, the problem got worse and after about 15 months, the unit refused to spin any disks.

DVD burner began to work fine, after about 6 months the unit refused to burn disks, but could still read them OK.

I cant be bothered explaining the rest, basically, I avoid Sony stuff now, after being a loyal customer for many years.Maybe you're unlucky. I've had a Sony 725 DVD player since 1998 and I've used it almost every day and never had a problem with it. Playstation bought the same year also had no problems playing anything and you should see how my kids treat some of the discs the console has had to deal with.

[Grandmaster]

My Sony 725 developed the infamous C13:00:00 problem which is a notorious issue across the entire range of Sony's DVD players of that time period. It was replaced by a Pioneer that was a third of the price but superior in every way. The concept of Sony being a premium brand died many years ago. Generally speaking, their DVD players have been way below par compared to the best out there.

With regards BluRay vs HD-DVD... they use the same codecs, so short of BluRay's decoder being massively superior, they will give the same results. The extra bandwidth makes no odds when there is so much to begin with. The concept that the 'early adopters' will be able to tell the difference smacks of the Emperor's New Clothes.

PS3 will not be a major factor in BluRay sales for the same reason that PS2 didn't drive DVD sales. Games machines hog the TV they are connected to, so aside from the homes of single males, they will end up being relegated to the bedroom.

[Grandmaster]

Was UMD ever meant to be an alternative to DVDs though? Basically it's a game cartidge that also had a few films released on it. Blu-ray/HD-DVD are both completely different.

The way UMD disks are authored shows that Sony had aspirations of it taking on DVD. The PSP's resolution is a paltry (by movie standards) 480x272, while the UMD disks are actually encoded at the same resolution as NTSC DVD: 720x480.

Why the full-screen resolution if it was only ever supposed to run on a 480x272 display?

UMD is also the latest in a long line of Sony proprietary standards including Betamax, Minidisk and its successor and Memory Stick and its myriad derivatives. Whether BluRay should be compared to them is up for discussion as we are seeing other manufacturers on the bandwagon.

For that reason alone, I would urge people who want a decent player to stay away from Sony and go for a BluRay model from Pioneer or Panasonic. Unlike Sony, generally they know how to handle optical drives and the quality level is usually far superior.

[Spectre07]

Personally, if I don't count the PS3, I won't be getting a next gen player for a few years yet. I'm waiting for the format war to be concluded and when there are plenty of manufacturers and players to choose between.

[thescrounger]

OK, explain in what way its a myth?

The 7 major studios are apparently comprised of,

Sony/Columbia
MGM
Disney
Warner
Paramount
Fox
Universal



Sorry but they are evenly matched, Sony owns MGM and Columbia, so they come under Sony. Technically that's 3 each. I'm not talking about catalog of movies either, that will make little difference. I'm talking about company support. I personally think that HD-DVD has the better studios on it's side.

[lfletcher]

What about all the other non-US studios?
Well I know Studio Canal are supporting HD-DVD, but that wont affect the US market. You also have Lionsgate supporting BR only, and the Weinstein COmpany supporting HD-DVD only. I dont think many/any other companies have announced support yet.

[lfletcher]

Sorry but they are evenly matched, Sony owns MGM and Columbia, so they come under Sony. Technically that's 3 each. I'm not talking about catalog of movies either, that will make little difference. I'm talking about company support. I personally think that HD-DVD has the better studios on it's side.
Erm, no. Count Sony/MGM/Columbia as one company. Warner and Paramount are supposed to be supporting both formats equally, therefore not favouring one over the other. So thats 3 to HD-DVD and 5 to BR.

I also dont see how you can ignore catalogue of titles. Surely people will ultimately buy into a format if they can watch their favorite film on it, not because 3 studios or 5 studios support it. I wont buy a HD-DVD because its cheaper than BR and then I cant watch the films I like on it or vice versia.
If you're a Star Wars fan for example and thats only being released on BR then thats the format you'll buy into. LOTR is likely to come out for both so then its up to the consumer to decide, because then they actually have a choice. Content surely is king in this case.

[thescrounger]

Unless BR lower their hardware prices they won't stand a chance.

[ShakeyJake]

The way UMD disks are authored shows that Sony had aspirations of it taking on DVD. The PSP's resolution is a paltry (by movie standards) 480x272, while the UMD disks are actually encoded at the same resolution as NTSC DVD: 720x480.

Why the full-screen resolution if it was only ever supposed to run on a 480x272 display?


Why not? There was obviously enough space for that resolution. Maybe they plan on having a higher resolution screen on the PSP2. Maybe you will be able to stream the movies onto your PS3. Who knows...