Blu Ray vs HD-DVD - What Will You Choose?

[Harsin]

We may or may not be gearing up for a HD format war (I'm not convinced that the possibility of dual players will lead to the two formats living in harmony).

So which is the format of choice for DVD Forumites?

[Bananaman_007]

HD DVD for me, primerily because of the PS3 and everything it stands for...

[ShakeyJake]

I'll just wait for the machine from hong kong that costs £50 and plays both. But I will be buying a PS3 so I'll probably have blu-ray first, which makes me happy cause it has the best name and doesn't sound like a STD.

[Spectre07]

Blu-Ray for me, primerily because of the PS3 and everything it stands for...

[thescrounger]

Seeing as HD-DVD is half the price, I'm verging on HD-DVD.

[AndyWilson]

In all of the HD vs Blu-Ray arguments it's never been shown that one will have higher quality than the other. The slightly larger capacity of BR isn't a clincher - after all, how many DVD9s use 100% of the capacity?

Also, when I bought my plasma HD was only a distant possibility, and despite it being elderly it cost a lot of beer tokens so I don't plan on replacing it until I have to...

..which will be when there's must-have programming on some HD format that I can't watch on my (mostly) 20th Century setup - then I'll buy into whatever format gives me that programming.

Of course, it's always possible that - like with SACD and DVD-A - no exclusive "must have" programming will ever appear...

[Bananaman_007]

Thats another point...

People may see/hear the name HD DVD and think its something that goes with their new HD TV (thinking it maybe better as its got HD in the name as does the TV).

While that arguement may seam stupid, i know my auntie who loves technology (but does not understand) it would think that...

[Harsin]

While that arguement may seam stupid, i know my auntie who loves technology (but does not understand) it would think that...

I don't think it's a stupid argument. The whole HD thing causes enough confusion on specialist forums like these (check out everytime an LCD is posted in the Bargain Forum and the subsequent 5 pages of whether it's actually HD or not) that I dread to think what the general public make of all the terminology and specs. At the end of the day it is these people who will make or break a product not the devoted Home Entertainment enthusiast.

[Dan]

I'll probably buy a player for both formats just for the hell of it. http://www.zen82603.zen.co.uk/smilie/plotting.gif

[Kryten]

I'll be getting a multi-format player if I get either, although a PS3 will probably put me onto Blu Ray first.

[Chris]

Seeing as HD-DVD is half the price, I'm verging on HD-DVD.

Be interesting to see if anyone releases a Mobile Intel P4 based player like the Toshiba HD-A1 player but with a bluray drive. The decoding requirements will be similar (both stored in 1080p format) and drive pricing appears to be similar.

[GarethH]

Why are there so many votes for HD-DVD? Why? Apart from the price, why? Blu-ray has the support from a majority of the studios!

[camaj]

Why are there so many votes for HD-DVD? Why? Apart from the price, why? Blu-ray has the support from a majority of the studios!

People often cite the price and hint at a hatred for Sony. Now I'm hardly Sony's number one fan but at the end of the day all the companies involved have a good track record. That said I'll probably end up with a PS3 just for the price even though it pains me slightly to do so.

The price is an intersting thing. Personally I wouldn't choose on price at all, I'd choose the one that did what I wanted or had the better spec and if it was too expensive I'd wait for the price to drop to my budget. No point wasting money on something just because it's cheap. Even without Blu-ray I'd avoid Toshiba's player like the plague until they fixed all the bugs and provided a remote that actually worked more than half the time

[jon smith]

Why are there so many votes for HD-DVD? Why? Apart from the price, why? Blu-ray has the support from a majority of the studios!


HD DVD players and films are availble to buy now. Until we see Blu Ray players and discs we have no idea if it will be any good.

Distrust of the sony hype machine

And price ;)

[Ragnar]

Mine will be the one which comes out first with a recorder at a reasonable price that works with Sky HD.

[nscol]

I'll take whichever player will give me a 1080I picture over component as thats all my jvc crt will display.

Oh, and I voted to wait for a winning format.


edited for spelling :)

[camaj]

HD DVD players and films are availble to buy now. Until we see Blu Ray players and discs we have no idea if it will be any good.

"We" haven't seen either but you can be sure that Blu-ray will be at worst the same as HD DVD.

[Bananaman_007]

Why are there so many votes for HD-DVD? Why? Apart from the price, why? Blu-ray has the support from a majority of the studios!

Yes but what people fail to mention is that most studios are trying out both formats to cover bases. I personaly think HD DVD will win, Sony will prolong the death of Blue Ray with the PS3 but that has hardly saved UMD now has it. Even Sony who are the people behind the PSP are slowly dropping the ammount of movies they are putting out due to poor sales (in the US mainly).

HD DVD has the advantage of having a name the general public knows DVD, also as we saw in the 80s with VHS v Betamax i think price will win out.

Does anybody have any idea how much Blue Ray and HD DVD movies will cost and if we will get any extras on the format over standard dvd?

[Grandmaster]

In all of the HD vs Blu-Ray arguments it's never been shown that one will have higher quality than the other. The slightly larger capacity of BR isn't a clincher - after all, how many DVD9s use 100% of the capacity?

BluRay has a higher bandwidth than HD-DVD, so it's able to process more picture information in theory giving better picture quality.

In practise, the human eye will be unable to discern the difference because HD-DVD's bandwidth is more than adequate for 1080p/24 playback. If we were to see 1080p/60 - which I personally consider to be the only 'true' successor to standard definition - it would be a different story.

As it is, no-one will be able to make a call quality-wise between the two systems.

[Grandmaster]

Blu-Ray for me, primerily because of the PS3 and everything it stands for...

BluRay movie playback on PS3 is not going to make a lot of difference to whichever format 'wins' the war, as much as Sony likes to think otherwise.

The reason is very straightforward - if the PS3 is connected to your main TV, the rest of the family cannot use the TV while the gamer is playing games. As most games are single-player efforts involving multiple hours of play at a stretch, the games machine is inevitably consigned to the bedroom.

I would venture to say that the only people who truly believe that PS3 will have a significant impact on BluRay's success are single males totally in control of the 'main' TV of the house.

To illustrate, it wasn't the PS2 that made DVD mass-market - it was the sub-£100 DVD player. And the DVD player itself is so pervasive in the home, and still a relatively 'young' format, that its power will most likely make HD the next Laserdisc.

As it is, the UK and Europe will have little bearing on the HD war any way. Whatever format wins in the US will become the dominant format here by default. And in the US, price is king - my guess is that whoever produces the first sub-$200 player will emerge triumphant.

[R-T-C]

In my view, HD will not take-off for years, if ever.

For 'regular people' who are mostly satisfied with their existing 17" TV, there is no incentive to upgrade to a massive new widescreen TV. Look at DTS, how many people watch DVDs on their standard stereo TV speakers? If people don't want to spend too much on speakers, they won't want to upgrade to a new TV.

Thus the format war will be won by a combination of film fans and rich yuppies.

I'm going to sit back and wait to see which one releases PC drives first.

[ShakeyJake]

Well I guess the time will come when people need to buy a new DVD player and the player they buy will play all formats inc. SD and HD. Like they mostly all play mpeg4 now, it will just be a feature that they all do whether you want it or not.

[thescrounger]

In my view, HD will not take-off for years, if ever.

For 'regular people' who are mostly satisfied with their existing 17" TV, there is no incentive to upgrade to a massive new widescreen TV.

It won't be HD that makes people want to upgrade, but getting a flatpanel TV which are all the rage right now.

[Spectre07]

In my view, HD will not take-off for years, if ever.

For 'regular people' who are mostly satisfied with their existing 17" TV, there is no incentive to upgrade to a massive new widescreen TV. Look at DTS, how many people watch DVDs on their standard stereo TV speakers? If people don't want to spend too much on speakers, they won't want to upgrade to a new TV.

Thus the format war will be won by a combination of film fans and rich yuppies.

I'm going to sit back and wait to see which one releases PC drives first.I reckon HD will replace DVD as much as SACD has replaced the CD.

[camaj]

I reckon HD will replace DVD as much as SACD has replaced the CD.

Even if it becomes a niche format, it'll be miles more popular than SACD/DVD-A were. From what I've seen, most of the titles on HD CD have been classical or classic albums rather than contemporary stuff. Releases are few and far between. Blu-ray will probably eclipse the entire catalogue of both formats this year.

[USDirect]

betamax, memorysticks, minidisc, micromv?

I can get a HDDVD player now and netflix now stock the movies.

[Spectre07]

betamax, memorysticks, minidisc, micromv?

I can get a HDDVD player now .You're welcome to it:

Digital Bits

'So guess what? We'd planned to get our reviews of Serenity, The Last Samurai and The Phantom of the Opera up on Friday... then Saturday... then today. But it hasn't happened yet. It's certainly not for lack of trying or serious effort, believe me. It's because we've encountered some significant issues during the process. First of all, we continue to have a problem with movie software freezing for a few moments during playback, after which it continues playing but without audio, or with out-of-sync audio. It's happened on every movie disc we've tried now, at least once per film (and sometimes more often).

The other thing we've discovered is that the quality and character of the 1080i video that the Toshiba player delivers from its digital HDMI and component analog outputs is very different. The analog output features significantly enhanced color saturation and contrast levels over the HDMI, which SHOULD be more accurate. The difference is not minor, and we're trying to figure out exactly what it means and why it's happening. It's important to understand what's going on here, and which video output is correct (or more correct), so that we can accurately describe the video quality in our reviews.'

[Sheepking]

You're welcome to it:

Digital Bits

'So guess what? We'd planned to get our reviews of Serenity, The Last Samurai and The Phantom of the Opera up on Friday... then Saturday... then today. But it hasn't happened yet. It's certainly not for lack of trying or serious effort, believe me. It's because we've encountered some significant issues during the process. First of all, we continue to have a problem with movie software freezing for a few moments during playback, after which it continues playing but without audio, or with out-of-sync audio. It's happened on every movie disc we've tried now, at least once per film (and sometimes more often).

The other thing we've discovered is that the quality and character of the 1080i video that the Toshiba player delivers from its digital HDMI and component analog outputs is very different. The analog output features significantly enhanced color saturation and contrast levels over the HDMI, which SHOULD be more accurate. The difference is not minor, and we're trying to figure out exactly what it means and why it's happening. It's important to understand what's going on here, and which video output is correct (or more correct), so that we can accurately describe the video quality in our reviews.'


Nice to see you being so balanced with your cutting and pasting.

From the same site:

As for the freezing/skipping/audio sync problem, it seems to happen for two reasons: 1) when the player is hot (has been in use for a long time) and/or 2) when you use the remote to skip and scan around a lot in the film material. Either way, it seems to be a hardware issue, and it's not happening enough to be truly annoying. I've been able to watch several films all the way through now without a glitch, so we'll see.

[kiran_mk2]

Balanced or no - is there any excuse for putting out a machine with these kinds of bugs. If it crashed when people did odd things like pressing lots of buttons at once then that would be understandable, but surely QC should have picked up overheating and rapid scene skipping. The villain again seems to be the evil of firmware. It used to be a good thing cos new firmwares brought new features, but now developers seem to use firmware updates to simply get their device upto the standard it should have been in the first place.

[Spectre07]

I'm thinking the 'evil' is rushing a product to market before all the bugs have been ironed out just to beat a competitor format.

[camaj]

I'm thinking the 'evil' is rushing a product to market before all the bugs have been ironed out just to beat a competitor format.

I think cutting your price in half just to beat a competitor is worse. Clearly they don't have any confidence that it can sell at full price

[Roberto]

whats funny is that most people seem to like HD-DVD because it's cheaper and out first. Well it seems that they simply rushed out a buggy player, like they say, you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. Why are a lot of people here so short-sighted they they can't seem to grasp that Blue-ray WILL get cheaper, and who's not to say at a faster rate then HD-DVD players?

[camaj]

Why are a lot of people here so short-sighted they they can't seem to grasp that Blue-ray WILL get cheaper, and who's not to say at a faster rate then HD-DVD players?

Maybe they just don't care. If Toshiba are already selling at a bit of a loss, it's questionable how much they could discount further. I think BD will go down by $100 a year but Toshiba intends to hold at $500 for at least 4 years. I think they hope that if they can kill off BD they can raise prices after or at least hold them at $500 for longer than normal. Since they're effectively a monopoly they could do this

[neilalford]

I imagine my first HD player will be an HD-DVD drive for my X-Box, something fairly cheap that will tide me over for a few years.

Then in a few years time when the market's settled down and a £500+ player will be a decent high-end player rather than a basic player with a premium price tag I'll look at getting a decent stand alone player.

I made the mistake of buying a 'budget' Sony DVD player and ended up selling it within a month for £100 less than a paid for it as I couldn't put up with the drop in quality over my previous high-end player (also Sony)

[thescrounger]

Why are a lot of people here so short-sighted they they can't seem to grasp that Blue-ray WILL get cheaper, and who's not to say at a faster rate then HD-DVD players?

Well, Bluray costs more to manufacture for a start. That's why it's more expensive. Can't see the BR pricing changing for at least a couple of years. By which time HD-DVD players will have reached the supermarket level.

[Roberto]

Well, Bluray costs more to manufacture for a start. That's why it's more expensive. Can't see the BR pricing changing for at least a couple of years. By which time HD-DVD players will have reached the supermarket level.That would be commercial suicide, i can't think of a single piece of electronic equipment (from sony or anyone else) that was still the same price two years after release.

[thescrounger]

That would be commercial suicide, i can't think of a single piece of electronic equipment (from sony or anyone else) that was still the same price two years after release.

Have you been to a sony store lately?

Not to mention DVD recorders took a good 2-3 years to come down to reasonable prices.

[greath]

Have you been to a sony store lately?

Not to mention DVD recorders took a good 2-3 years to come down to reasonable prices.

And it was only in the last two years that plasma TVs have come down, even though you could buy them 7 or more years ago.

[SIMON ADEBISI]

Ill be getting a ps3 anyway so Blu ray i suppose.

[Grandmaster]

Maybe they just don't care. If Toshiba are already selling at a bit of a loss, it's questionable how much they could discount further.

Out of curiosity, where is your evidence that Toshiba is actually selling at a loss? This tactic is usually employed when the software licenses are used to make up the shortfall. From what I understand, Toshiba doesn't get any cut of HD-DVD disks that are pressed.

[Spectre07]

Well, Bluray costs more to manufacture for a start. That's why it's more expensive. Can't see the BR pricing changing for at least a couple of years. By which time HD-DVD players will have reached the supermarket level.Assuming HD-DVD gains popularity similar to DVD (which I doubt), it will take 4 years for cheap players to appear in supermarkets.

[DeadKenny]

Much as I object to the way Sony go about things these days, combined with their declining quality standards (I used to be such a big fan), and my opinion that Blu-Ray really has nothing going for it by comparison other than purely extra capacity...

I will still wait and see. Obviously if Blu-Ray wins I will likely buy it anyway even if it costs the consumer more.

Though I'd put money on an outside chance of HD-DVD/Blu-Ray becoming nothing more than the video equivalent of DVD-A/SACD and instead something like HVD becoming the big thing to replace DVD :D.

[lfletcher]

Well I voted Blu Ray, because its the format I prefer but have my HD-DVD in transit at the moment - where's the both option :D

Remember that Blu Ray isn't soley a Sony product, it's backed by the major manufacturers in the hardware industry (Pioneer, Panasonic, Samsung, Sharp).

The reason Betamax lost the previous war was studio support and a lack of interest in allowing porn onto their hardware, price didnt come into the equation. This time round they have the greatest studio support and several of the larger porn studios are already commited to Blu Ray, so if history repeats itself Blu Ray has to be in the driving seat.

[USDirect]

I just think a regular bestbuy type consumer will see HD-DVD and associate it with HDTV - it has the branding edge.

[thescrounger]

I just think a regular bestbuy type consumer will see HD-DVD and associate it with HDTV - it has the branding edge.

Got it in one.

[Grandmaster]

I just think a regular bestbuy type consumer will see HD-DVD and associate it with HDTV - it has the branding edge.

While I am inclined to agree with this sentiment, the regular Bestbuy type of consumer also won't purchase any kind of box of tricks for over $199, so there's a fair way yet to go before this part of the market becomes important.

One tactic studios may employ which could yield dividends is to release their hot movies on the premium format first. Back in the day, in the US the laserdiscs would be released a good way ahead of the retail VHS. Perhaps DVD releases will be pushed back a month or two with the HD versions getting the 'exclusive'.

[thescrounger]

Well that is what also happened with DVD. VHS releases would still be on a rental only period whilst the DVDs were available on retail straight away.

[USDirect]

While I am inclined to agree with this sentiment, the regular Bestbuy type of consumer also won't purchase any kind of box of tricks for over $199, so there's a fair way yet to go before this part of the market becomes important.

One tactic studios may employ which could yield dividends is to release their hot movies on the premium format first. Back in the day, in the US the laserdiscs would be released a good way ahead of the retail VHS. Perhaps DVD releases will be pushed back a month or two with the HD versions getting the 'exclusive'.

You cant have been in my bestbuy LOL - I see people spending thousands on ill informed 'HDTV' televisions.

I remember a period of rental only DVDs at blockbusters but I think it was a universal studios policy.

[Spectre07]

One tactic studios may employ which could yield dividends is to release their hot movies on the premium format first. Back in the day, in the US the laserdiscs would be released a good way ahead of the retail VHS. Perhaps DVD releases will be pushed back a month or two with the HD versions getting the 'exclusive'.Don't think that will happen because the studios will simply encourag piracy. One of the weapons against illegal copying is releasing films on DVD etc as soon after the films release as possible. There's even talk of having films released on all formats and for rental, day and date with the film's theatrical release.

[Soprano]

Me and 85%* of the public will be buying the cheapest one.



(*wild guess without much thought)

[Ono]

Having done a bit of reading on the formats - it does seem to me that Blu-ray is the more advanced format.

Sadly though, the cheaper to produce HD-DVD is likely to win.

[Spectre07]

Cheapest option is to stick with DVD.

[DeadKenny]

Having done a bit of reading on the formats - it does seem to me that Blu-ray is the more advanced format.
Advanced only by the fact it has more capacity. As far as the consumer is concerned that's the only difference.

[thescrounger]

Plus Advanced = more inclined to go wrong easily.

[Roberto]

Plus Advanced = more inclined to go wrong easily.A gross sweeping statement that can't be more wrong! :lol: :lol:

[thescrounger]

A gross sweeping statement that can't be more wrong! :lol: :lol:

Don't speak too soon, we shall see, we shall see.

[DeadKenny]

If Sony are involved, judging by their declining quality standards recently, it could be true ;)

[Ono]

Advanced only by the fact it has more capacity. As far as the consumer is concerned that's the only difference.
I thought that the read/write speeds were also faster?

[Mal27]

The good thing about DVD is the highly limited menu technology, so it's very difficult - no matter how creative they are - to make the menus unusable and it's very easy to run through tests to make sure they work.

As far as I know, HD DVD more or less uses a more advanced version of this sort of menu, whilst Blu-ray uses a Java powered system. This makes me think Blu-ray producers will be able to mess it up really badly with all sorts of "impressive" and custom features.

So for that reason and the way that it sounds like the successor to DVD, HD DVD is my preference for the moment.

[bruceames]

HD DVD because it's available and because the player sells for 1/2 the price (that Blu-ray will sell theirs for) . A "middle class" price so to speak that will lure many into chancing first generation equipment, just to get into the game. Whoever sells the most players will win. The Toshiba HD-A1 is a fine player which also upconverts SD DVDs incredibly well. It is worth it just for that alone.

[Grandmaster]

I thought that the read/write speeds were also faster?

All of which is irrelevant in a set-top movie player. Many DVD players were locked to 1x/2x speeds in order to make them quieter.

The good thing about DVD is the highly limited menu technology, so it's very difficult - no matter how creative they are - to make the menus unusable and it's very easy to run through tests to make sure they work.

As far as I know, HD DVD more or less uses a more advanced version of this sort of menu, whilst Blu-ray uses a Java powered system. This makes me think Blu-ray producers will be able to mess it up really badly with all sorts of "impressive" and custom features.

So for that reason and the way that it sounds like the successor to DVD, HD DVD is my preference for the moment.

DVD menus can still be unusable - check out the scene selection menus in R1 Moulin Rouge, for example. The authoring level of DVD is still fairly advanced - hence all those DVD games out there right now.

With regards the menus in HD-DVD and BluRay, both use very advanced Java-style scripting languages, so there's not much to choose between them on that score.

[ShakeyJake]

All of which is irrelevant in a set-top movie player. Many DVD players were locked to 1x/2x speeds in order to make them quieter.


1x and 2x HD-DVD and Blu-Ray aren't the same speed. Like 1x on a CD is different to 1x on a DVD. Because the data is more compact on Blu-Ray it can read more data at the same RPM.

[DeadKenny]

As far as I know, HD DVD more or less uses a more advanced version of this sort of menu, whilst Blu-ray uses a Java powered system. This makes me think Blu-ray producers will be able to mess it up really badly with all sorts of "impressive" and custom features.
Indeed. That worries me, especially if they don't lock down the Java spec and implementations very tightly. And what of Java security flaws, especially if these machines will have a network socket and people plug into their home networks :suspect:. On top of that Java is just so slow. I know of plenty of companies who have tried to use Java in hardware devices but give up because of poor performance.

HD-DVD on the other hand uses a version of Dynamic HTML which is quick and simple and is just a progression of how DVD menus work. Another reason why Microsoft are backing HD-DVD perhaps as DHTML is a favourite of theirs (and Java is the domain of Sun).

[DeadKenny]

1x and 2x HD-DVD and Blu-Ray aren't the same speed. Like 1x on a CD is different to 1x on a DVD. Because the data is more compact on Blu-Ray it can read more data at the same RPM.
Still makes no difference. What benefit is it to the customer if it reads data quicker? As far as they're concerned they want to watch a movie, that's all.

The speeds only become relevant when it comes to HD-DVD/Blu-Ray drives for PCs used for data storage and that's a different story altogether.

[Grandmaster]

1x and 2x HD-DVD and Blu-Ray aren't the same speed. Like 1x on a CD is different to 1x on a DVD. Because the data is more compact on Blu-Ray it can read more data at the same RPM.

Indeed, but you have missed my point. What is the point of being able to read in more data when it is simply not required? Both HD-DVD and BluRay have a staggering amount of bandwidth available for even the most challenging of movie content.

[Mal27]

It's a shame they split into two camps on this. If they didn't they would have had the option to sell two products, a cheaper DVD version and a more expensive DVD / HD DVD hybrid that could be sold for the first few years as a DVD with HD capabilities.

As it is with the two formats, they can't afford to push the customer gently onto an HD format, so instead they are selling them as HD discs first with the branding plastered all over the case (and when it's a DVD hybrid, that appears as a secondary banner).

[Grandmaster]

Yes I'm sure many of us have DVD players elsewhere in the home where screen size and picture quality are not so important - the idea of being able to buy a product that plays in HD on the main 'living room' player and in normal DVD quality on the 'bedroom' £30 cheapie would have been a decent boon.

[ali]

Sony now control a lot of films though, especially with the acquisition of MGM - that'll probably tip the balance, at least initially. I can't seen any Sony-owned studios releasing HD material on anything but exclusively blu-ray, until a time where HD-DVD is clearly dominant and they are loosing a lot of lost revenue.

[bruceames]

If Toshiba sells a lot of players, Sony might have to choose between exclusivity and selling more HD movies.

[Spectre07]

If Toshiba sells a lot of players, Sony might have to choose between exclusivity and selling more HD movies.With all the bugs the HD-A1 appears to have they'll be lucky to give them away.

[thescrounger]

With all the bugs the HD-A1 appears to have they'll be lucky to give them away.

Well I'll take a few. :D

[bruceames]

With all the bugs the HD-A1 appears to have they'll be lucky to give them away.

You must be misinformed. I have the player and it is worth much more than what I paid for it even if I never play an HD disc in it (however I will of course). It upconverts better than any player on the market. That alone far outweighs the "bugs" (which are being exaggerated by the way). The main negative for me is it's lack of position memory (when you take the disc out of the tray). But that's a minor inconvenience when faced with such a staggering improvement (with the SD discs) in clarity. I believe this is an aspect which is overlooked: How well will these players play your existing DVDs? Anybody who has an HDMI input would be foolish not to buy it if they had the chance, if nothing else then for this reason alone. Maybe Blu-ray will upconvert equally as well but that remains to be seen...but why spend twice as much? The Toshiba HD-A1 is a FINE machine and they (alone) won't be able to keep up with demand.

[thescrounger]

Good to hear Bruce, I'm really quite tempted now!

[bruceames]

I'd like to add that I'm not at all anti-Sony. I'm just a very happy and surprised HD-A1 owner who never expected such great SD playback. The difference is greater now than it was from 480i to 480p. And I have a lot of DVDs to enjoy again! :)

[DeadKenny]

£340 has just been announced as the price for a PS3!. That may change matters ;)

[Spectre07]

You must be misinformed.Have you read any of the online reviews of the player? The ones I've read hardly engender any confidence in the player.

[Spectre07]

£340 has just been announced as the price for a PS3!. That may change matters ;)Don't forget we live in 'rip-off' britain, I expect the price to be nearer £400.

[bruceames]

Didn't mean to question your sources Spector. I really meant to convey that the problems aren't as bad as they're being made out to be. Also I wanted to give Toshiba credit where credit is due. It is first Gen. after all and it's problems aren't atypical with the gravity of those found in other such products. There's always the option of returning it for a refund :)

[Spectre07]

Didn't mean to question your sources Spector. I really meant to convey that the problems aren't as bad as they're being made out to be. Also I wanted to give Toshiba credit where credit is due. It is first Gen. after all and it's problems aren't atypical with the gravity of those found in other such products. There's always the option of returning it for a refund :)I'm waiting until the 2nd or 3rd gen players, until they've ironed the bugs out. Do you really have to wait a minute before you can play a disc? :eek:

[bruceames]

about 40 seconds, a little faster with an SD disc. It also takes about 45 seconds to boot (but I often leave mine on). I do understand your concern about these players and your desire to wait. I just bought mine because I wanted to be in on cutting edge technology for at least once in my life. Also I bought an HDTV a couple of months ago and I would like to use it to it's potential. Fortunately my player doesn't have the freeze-up problems mentioned in a few reviews. Hopefully those players are few and far between. I do like the firmware update feature, which may fix most of the bugs. However, given that it plays my SD discs so much better, I can live with the flaws it has now.

[Spectre07]

I must admit I'd forgotten all about the upscaling ability of these players, glad to hear you say that feature is impressive.

[bruceames]

It is impressive, so much so, that I would rather have it than the HD capability. After all, I have many, many SD DVDs and only 5 HD DVDs. It is really a very big improvement, compared to both my "low end" HDMI player and especially my component connected Sony 5 disc player (whose 40 position memory I will miss, but oh well). It could be that a high end player will upscale equally but I have yet to find anyone who doesn't say the Toshiba is the better player. After all, when you really get down to it, only about 1 percent of your time is spent on dvd prep, and the other 99 percent is actually watching it. Sure, if the playback quality were the same, the Tosiba would suck in comparison...but it's way not the case. So now I'm having a great time, parading all my favorite movies thru the player in order to see them better than ever.

[DeadKenny]

From what I've been reading upscaling is better off done in the display rather than the player or amp.

[bruceames]

I really haven't read anything myself about what upscaling really is nor how it's done. I just see the end result. But I would like to know what's behind it though :)

[DeadKenny]

Over on www.avforums.com there are plenty of people talking of experiences with upscaling systems. I was considering the Denon 1920 sacd/dvd-a/dvd player which has HDMI upscaling but then some comments over there say the upscaling isn't very good.

[Much]

IMHO, the Blu-ray seems technically far superior, and I think it has to be said I'd far prefer such technology to 'win'.
But bar the eventual purchase of a PS3 (just to have all the current consoles!), I'll probably be waiting to see which becomes the defining standard.

OTOH; if the PS3 could make any difference (in an 'I've got a games machine that can play those...' / 'I bought THAT format 'cos they workeds on the PS3; now I just need a dedicated player' way); It could well be the exception to the 'superior technology loses to marketing' tales of the past.

[Grandmaster]

From what I've been reading upscaling is better off done in the display rather than the player or amp.

You're joking. The best players have dedicated scaling technologies from the likes of Faroudja etc - image processing experts who know how to make the most from upscaling an SD image. The panels rarely have decent scaling at all - even my top-end (for its time) Pioneer screen does this pretty poorly.

[Spectre07]

Over on www.avforums.com there are plenty of people talking of experiences with upscaling systems. I was considering the Denon 1920 sacd/dvd-a/dvd player which has HDMI upscaling but then some comments over there say the upscaling isn't very good.There's a few people on these forums who've got this (http://www.itsupplies.net/product_info.php?products_id=247) upscaling DVD and have raved about it.

[DeadKenny]

You're joking. The best players have dedicated scaling technologies from the likes of Faroudja etc - image processing experts who know how to make the most from upscaling an SD image. The panels rarely have decent scaling at all - even my top-end (for its time) Pioneer screen does this pretty poorly.
Opinions over at the avforums seem to vary but the general impression I get from the posts and some of the reviews that player and amp scaling is not that great, at least not unless you spend thousands on the player and even then it depends on how you match it with a display.

It seems one problem is that few players will upscale to the native resolution of the display (often 768 instead of 720 lines) and as a result the display will upscale as well. It may be that the players are actually good at upscaling but because they don't match the native resolution the upscaling in the display defeats the purpose of the player's upscaling.

Read the DVD Players forum at avforums and see what I mean. A lot of advice coming back from questions about upscaling players is to basically forget it unless you really are spending thousands and you've got a match with the native resolution of the display.

It's not my opinion, just what I've been reading, and as I say opinions do vary. I'd like to know the definitive answer myself but I'm not really in the market for a £1k+ player.

There's a few people on these forums who've got this (http://www.itsupplies.net/product_info.php?products_id=247) upscaling DVD and have raved about it.
Again, on the avforums there are comments about cheap upscaling chips in the Oppo. Great reviews otherwise but for upscaling they seem to be saying forget it, but again others disagree.

I don't know if it's just based on a match of equipment or just some people are more critical than others. It's enough to make me think twice before buying though. I'd need a good demo of both player and display before buying anything.

:shrug:

[John Hodson]

I don't know if it's just based on a match of equipment or just some people are more critical than others...

And don't forget that there are some people that just don't know what the hell they are doing; they leave a whole mess of digital filtering switched on or sometimes what they're looking at is basically a badly authored disc. And on their brand new super-duper sized plasma/LCD what before looked acceptable now not only looks bigger, but has bigger problems. And they spent £££s on that?

Demonstrating what you propose to combine is a perfectly sensible solution, but I also found this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=477740) talked a deal of common sense. Snippet:

Given all that, it would seem natural that the best arrangement would be to use a digital connection for a *480* signal, and just leave it to the TV to do whatever scaling is needed -- once. Curiously, that is not often the best way to hook things up. HDTV-ready TV's are optimized for 1080i broadcast signals because that's how they are often judged in stores. That, plus any advantage that comes from having a better scaler in the player suggests that having the player upscale the DVD data and then feed that to the TV will give a better result even though a second scaling pass may be needed. There are additional advantages if you watch movies filmed in older 4:3 shape in that the player can put pillar boxes around the movie content without loss of movie resolution because the player is sending a higher resolution signal.

The bottom line is that despite the best efforts of the marketing guys to pull a fast one here, many of the better up-scaling players DO INDEED produce a significantly better image on many HDTV-ready TVs. Some of that is due to the digital connection, but some is also due to the combination of de-interlacing and scaling technologies working well to produce a signal the TV happens to be optimized to display. Combine that with other improvements naturally occurring with each product cycle and you get a better player.

But just as with the progressive players, there are some up-scaling players out there which are nothing but hype. Engineered by the school of shoddy, they are just not worth the money. And there are undoubtedly folks who will buy up-scaling players and find they end up preferring the signal they get hooking the thing up via S-video at 480 resolution, simply because their TV does a better job doing what they paid to have the DVD player do.

For the record, I'm a very, very happy Oppo owner who upscales to 720p (and sometimes 1080i depending on the disc) to a Toshiba 42 WLT58 via HDMI.

[Spectre07]

A couple of days ago, I had a demonstration of a Denon 3910 connected to a 55" Pioneer plasma via HDMI. It's upscaling abilities were mighty impressive even when connected via component. I was particularly pleased about how impressive The Fellowship of the Rings looked. I also watched House of Flying Daggers which was a little more grainy. So disc authoring makes an appreciable difference.

[DeadKenny]

Out of interest, there's a thread on the upscaling question here...

http://www.thedvdforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=420423

[bruceames]

Thanks guys, for all the links. I've been reading them for the last hour and learned quite a bit about the process. I too have noticed that 4:3 films are upscaled relatively better than widescreen. I was very impressed with the difference in Casablanca (particularly picture grain, clarity and contrast). As a fan of old movies, this is an extra bonus for me :) As I said, the HD-A1 upconverts as well as or better than an player on the planet. When this "rumor" becomes fact, Sony's in deep trouble because that means to buy an HD-A1 involves absolutely no risk, since they know that even if HD-DVD loses, the upscale ability was more than worth the investment.
In fact, Sony will probably have to lower the Bluray player prices now to even have a chance, especially given the recent pricing announcement of the ps3 players. Who's gonna be stupid enough to fork over $1000 dollars for (single-layer) Bluray players now, with $600 dollar HDMI ps3 players waiting in the wings just 5 months later?

[bruceames]

After looking over the Bluray movie releases for June, I'd like to revise my last comment, deleting "stupid" and inserting "rich". It's a major bummer the the first two Terminator movies will only be on Bluray :(

[DeadKenny]

Yeah, sadly they're MGM and that means Sony, thus Blu-Ray.

Same goes for all the Bond films if/when they do them in HD releases :(

Given the extra cost of manufacturing BR discs I suspect releases will also take longer to appear on BR whereas on HD-DVD they can be churning them out fast which might encourage more growth in the market.

[bruceames]

I'm sure Bond will see HD within a year. I think this Bluray vs. HD-DVD could get real messy when both wheel out all their "exclusive" movies for the stores to display. It could come down to who has more or better exclusives. Right now the focus is all on the players, but maybe the real war waits in the HD movie section. Many fence-sitters won't resist and will eventually hop off to choose that format best suiting their movie tastes. Myself, assuming bluray is still around, I will probably crack and scoop up one of the ps3 things, along with the 2 Terminator movies, so I can have my cake and eat it too.

[Spectre07]

£410 for the top end PS3 according to The Times means I won't be buying one this year or next. I thought I'd paid well over the odds for an XBox360 at £280 so the PS3 is going to have to come down by £130 before I even contemplate a purchase.

[bruceames]

Geez, they really sock it to you guys over there :(

[DeadKenny]

£425 according to this http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/05/18/sony_reveals_uk_ps3_pricing/

Yeah right, a bargain compared to a BR player at £600 Sony say, but the BR players will drop in price quick. The PS3 will stay at inflated Sony prices for quite a while just like the PS2 did. Even now a PS2 costs more than many DVD players (and is still incompatible with many discs).

[fattyboombatty]

Geez, they really sock it to you guys over there :(

i'm assuming you're american?

yes, yes they do really like to do a number on UK consumers :mad: here in "rip-off britain" we just do a straight swap with $'s to £'s, regardless of currency conversion. america simply has more consumer pulling power than here, which is why you'd never put up with the shafting we often get.

hey-ho, anyway, everyone thinks that they'll be getting a bargain BR player with the PS3, my guess is it will be a bug ridden piece of crap. leading sony to inevitably say 'well, it's primerily a games console. it was never intended to be a stand alone BR player'. roll on november, roll on the complaints, roll on sony's ******** excuses. :shrug:

[Spectre07]

hey-ho, anyway, everyone thinks that they'll be getting a bargain BR player with the PS3, my guess is it will be a bug ridden piece of crap. leading sony to inevitably say 'well, it's primerily a games console. it was never intended to be a stand alone BR player'. roll on november, roll on the complaints, roll on sony's ******** excuses. :shrug:As far as the US is concerned November's already here with Toshiba's HD-A1 bug ridden peice of hardware.

[nscol]

As far as the US is concerned November's already here with Toshiba's HD-A1 bug ridden peice of hardware.

I think the op meant that the ps3/blue ray player will be the same :shrug:


edited because player is spelt player not layer

[thescrounger]

As far as the US is concerned November's already here with Toshiba's HD-A1 bug ridden peice of hardware.

Greatly exaggerated. We even have a forum member who owns one if you'd care to have a read. :wave:

Besides which, firmware upgrades are available now. (again news of which has been posted in this forum).

Do keep up! ;)

[Spectre07]

Greatly exaggerated. We even have a forum member who owns one if you'd care to have a read. :wave:

Besides which, firmware upgrades are available now. (again news of which has been posted in this forum).

Do keep up! ;)Exaggerated or not it wasn't exactly a smooth launch. The point I was making was this is a new technology and you often find problems with any launch of new technology. Toshiba have had problems and I expect Sony to have problems, that's new technology for you.

[thescrounger]

Bluray will have more problems I imagine. Not least of all because they've been shooting their mouths off about it for so long. The hype itself is setting them up for a fall.

[fattyboombatty]

I think the op meant that the ps3/blue ray player will be the same :shrug:

yes, that's exactly what i meant. thank you :thumbs:

[bradavon]

I'm not able to vote as I would've voted for:

Both - I'm waiting for a dual supporting player

Considering the recent history: SACD and DVD-A both still here, DVD+ and DVD- both still here. I'm expecting both parties will dig their heels in and we'll have both for some time to come. Which I don't really mind about (it's an inconvenience but such is life) as long as the player I get supports both.

[Sprout Crumble]

Pioneer and Sony players now put back to mid-August. The Pioneers had a price cut but is still a bloody ridiculous $1500

[kiran_mk2]

Have there been any sales figures made available for HD-DVD yet?

[thescrounger]

I'm not able to vote as I would've voted for:

Both - I'm waiting for a dual supporting player

Considering the recent history: SACD and DVD-A


SACD has lost a lot of support recently though.

[Terry45]

The choice is simple HD DVD, because it allows you to keep and play your standard DVDs. In fact it also upscales them as well.

[thescrounger]

Bluray will phase out support of normal DVDs if they take a hold of the market too.

[Spectre07]

Bluray will phase out support of normal DVDs if they take a hold of the market too.How do you know that?

[thescrounger]

Just a guess. Being a completely different format it's only natural that it would do that.

[Tempest]

Spoke to two people at work today (not special in itself!) but I was talking about the new formats.
They are Male, one in his late 20's, the other in his early 40's and both quite savy people when it comes to gadgets.
They both knew about flat TV's, LCD and Plasma, and of course had heard of high definition, although neither had upgraded their set 's yet.

Guess what. (and I can only assume this will be typical)

I asked them if they knew what BluRay was.

They both looked blank, so I had to say, you know you get High Def TV's
Well, there with be Hi-Def DVD's coming out very soon, and also the competing format from Sony called BluRay.

Ahhhhhhh. The light had dawned.

The thing is (and I've said it before) These are typical average blokes, and (no insult meant) are more lightly to know about tech stuff than say mums or grans for example.

If THEY don't know what bluray is, then what hope if there?

You have a HD LCD set or HD Plasma, so you will go for a HD DVD player as it's got the same naming "HD"

Or will they step outside the box (as it were) and go for BluRay

Just imagine working in Currys/Comet. How many times are they going to have to explain that BluRay is actually a HD DVD format.

[Tempest]

Funny if I'm totally wrong here.

The HD-DVD Camp could to a totally awful job of advertizing their product (they've done a louzy job so far of taking advantage of their head start)

Sony could Blast the media with adverts about BluRay, and once the message has got across to the public, perhaps they could all walk into the shops just asking for a BluRay layer, and people could look out for BluRay movies to play on their PS3.

I must admit, I'm struggling to see that type of scenareo emerging, but I guess you never know.

Enough people see to be buying DAB Radios with 2" mono speakers (exageration) sp?

[Grandmaster]

The thing is the same males wouldn't have known what DVD was at the same point that product's life-cycle. It's all about the early initial take-up, promotion in stores, etc.

However, word of mouth in such situations is key and if the early adopters uniformly rail against Blu-Ray, it's in big, big trouble. Additionally if the PS3 Blu-Ray playback is in any way hobbled (like, for example, not playing back user-created BD-AV or DVD-R content in HD) then to my mind it's all over. It's not an inconceivable scenario considering Sony's form in hobbling the lower-end products, usually for phantom piracy reasons.

The way I see it right now is that Blu-Ray really has to hope that the PS3 will pull its spuds out of the fire.

[DeadKenny]

I still think it comes down to brand recognition.

Just look at the logo for HD-DVD. It's easily recognisable as DVD that everyone knows and loves but with HD.

Blu-Ray logo is something totally new and unrecognisable.

It may seem daft to just boil it down to a name and logo, but that's how people think (it's marketing after all). Especially given the two are nearly inseparable in specifications, certainly as far as the consumer is concerned.

Enough people see to be buying DAB Radios with 2" mono speakers (exageration) sp?
I still don't understand the marketing with DAB radios. It appears they are mainly just trying to sell them to OAPs who like their old traditional antique mono radios in their kitchens. There's very little market for them outside of that. Still very few AV amps with DAB in them.

:shrug:

[Michael Mackenzie]

The choice is simple HD DVD, because it allows you to keep and play your standard DVDs. In fact it also upscales them as well.Where does this myth that Blu-Ray players can't play standard DVDs come from?

That said, HD-DVD for me, for reasons best explained in this thread (http://ntsc-uk.domino.org/showthread.php?t=60396&page=3&pp=10). I've had the player sitting in the corner since yesterday, now I'm just waiting on the discs I've ordered to arrive.

[thescrounger]

Where does this myth that Blu-Ray players can't play standard DVDs come from?



Judging by the review of the Samsung Bluray machine, it would seem that it's incapable of playing back standard 4:3 DVD material at the correct AR. Enough to put me off the machine.

[Michael Mackenzie]

Judging by the review of the Samsung Bluray machine, it would seem that it's incapable of playing back standard 4:3 DVD material at the correct AR. Enough to put me off the machine.Indeed, but I wouldn't touch a Samsung machine with a barge-pole anyway! I'm pretty sure the Sony, Pioneer etc. players will sort this out. Like I said, I'm not going for a Blu-Ray player myself, but I do feel that it's only fair to clear up some of the misinformation that's going around.

[thescrounger]

I know what you mean, but I do feel though that decent DVD playback will be less of a priority on Bluray machines, than it will be on HD-DVD machines.

[Michael Mackenzie]

Yes, that's quite possible. In any event, I'm watching Aladdin on my HD-DVD player at the moment, upscaled to 1080i - looks phenomenally good for a standard DVD.

[Spectre07]

Just a guess. Being a completely different format it's only natural that it would do that.Sony might like that but they won't have a monopoly on the manufacture of Blu-Ray players. You've only got to look at all the multi-format DVD players to see what is more likely to happen.

[thescrounger]

Yes, but Bluray is a new format that wants to beat DVD.

[GarethH]

Is anyone apart from Toshiba making HD-DVD players?

[Spectre07]

Yes, but Bluray is a new format that wants to beat DVD.The third party manufactueres want to sell hardware so it'll be in their interest to manufacture multiformat players, universal playback will be a selling point as far as they're concerned. I can't see Sony dictating to the likes of Pioneer, Toshiba, the chinese manufacturers etc and more upmarket brands like Denon or niche manufacturers such as Arcam. Didn't Pioneer launch a DVD/Laserdisc combi player during DVD's infancy? One of Blu-Ray's selling points is compatibility with DVD so a Blu Ray/DVD combi player isn't going to be as big a deal as the DVD/Laserdisc combi player was. Sony might want to alienate the overwhelmingly massive installed base of DVD collectors but I'm sure other manufacturers will see it makes good business sense to introduce the new format by inticing the DVD collector and offering universal playback. Otherwise the new formats will shrivel at the vine. You're right though, support for DVD will be dropped but not for 10 years or more which is the timescale the new formats will need to dent DVD popularity; but by then we'll have the next format arrive.

[thescrounger]

Is anyone apart from Toshiba making HD-DVD players?

Microsoft will be. Bound to be more.

[DeadKenny]

Microsoft will be. Bound to be more.
Microsoft's part in it is also (as always) a relationship with Intel, so there's a ready supplier of cheap mass produced chips for manufacturers. I'd expect they'll eventually do all-in-one processor and media chips designed for HD players which is the kind of thing the budget manufacturers use for their cheap players sold in the likes of Tescos.

Sony on the other hand will likely keep the licence for the hardware under very tight control, if it's anything like the PS2. So few manufacturers will be able to afford to produce competing models. Similar goes for software (if you know how difficult it is to produce PS2 titles thanks to Sony's expensive proprietary software and licence model, then you'll see how they could easily make Blu-Ray movies very expensive to make).

[Grandmaster]

There's an RCA HD-DVD player available in the US already, and of course the Xbox 360 add-on coming.

There do seem to be more Blu-Ray players mooted, but it's not much good if they're all 2-3 times the cost of the HD-DVD players.

[DeadKenny]

Though to be fair Tosh are currently heavily subsidising their players and making a loss, but then these are 1st generation players that cost vastly more to manufacture than they will once big production runs get going and the 2nd and 3rd generation players come though and components get integrated and reduced in size.

[Spectre07]

Saw an item on News 24 at lunchtime about the launch of Blu-Ray in New York. They of course mentioned the new format war and invoked the ghosts of Betamax vs VHS.

[douglasb]

Audioholics' "10 Reasons Why HD Formats Will Fail"

http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/10reasonsHDDVDsfailed.php

[Michael Mackenzie]

Audioholics' "10 Reasons Why HD Formats Will Fail"

http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/10reasonsHDDVDsfailed.phpMost of these "reasons" are extremely ill-founded. There's an excellent post (http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=360923) at the AV Forums that picks them apart in detail.

Does anyone remember the old "LaserDisc will win over DVD (Dead, Very Dead)" and "Divx has screwed it all up!" discussions?

"Nobody likes false starts With the debut of HD DVD at an underwhelming 720p/1080i,"

Speaking of false starts - Divx (the failed pay-to-view video disc system, not the video codec). That was the first most of America had ever seen of digital video discs (VCD doesn't count). In fact, seeing as LD wasn't exactly in that many homes, it'd be the first some Americans had seen of movies on a disc at all!

"For Toshiba to release a player that didn’t support true HD at 1080p (even though the software does), and with no lossless audio format to accompany the video track, the high definition wave was more of a ripple."

It's a strange move perhaps, but is it really that big a deal when you count the number of 1080p screens out there? Trust your eyes, not numbers. Even if they're not running at their absolute best right now, the first HD-DVD discs by all accounts are huge leaps over the blurry, filtered video transfers on most current DVDs.

"Add to this the delay of HDMI 1.3"

How many people have you heard saying "I'm not going to buy that HD-DVD/DVD/Blu-Ray player. It doesn't have HDMI 1.3"? The people buying this stuff want great picture quality regardless of the technical specifications. The fact that masses of ex-Blu Ray supporters (me included) have defected to a format that at its best is capable of storing 20gb less than Blu-Ray is promised to be capable of - and all because of the fact that the first Blu-Ray transfers aren't good on the eyes - is proof of this.

"The only reason Sony’s Playstation, Microsoft’s Xbox and the Nintendo GameCube can sell so well simultaneously is because of the prevalence of excellent software titles."

Bad comparison. Games consoles and movies aren't exactly alike. A lot of hardcore gamers would raise an eyebrow at the "excellent software titles" quote as well.

"The high definition DVD formats, however are really just the same source material packaged in two different wrappers- not to provide choice, mind you, but because the two camps simply are too greedy to combine forces"

That part is very true :thumbsup:

"HD DVD and Blu-ray are NOT Quantum Leaps in Technology"

I'm not sure about that, but HD-DVD at least is supposedly a quantum leap in picture quality. People who have seen the discs (and next week, that will include me) say that they have never seen such a good quality HD picture.

"Technology and more storage. Is this enough? Not on your life."

I agree. The increase in picture quality is the main catch here, not technology (who honestly cares about Blu-Ray's integrated web links?) and more storage, and this is particularly important with the take-up of LCD and Plasma screens.

Agree regarding conservative studios.

"The problem with this theory is that the PS3 is not being marketed as a home theater component"

The PS3 has not even been released yet so we'll see how SCE choose to market it. I agree that it's unlikely to be done as a home theater component but you can bet that it's not going to be marketed as JUST a gaming machine either even if that is its primary function.

Re: the DVD-A and SACD comparison. I may be in the minority here, but I find eye-catching video to be better at pulling people in than ear-catching sound. In a crowded store anyone can see a high quality video playing on a big screen. But most showrooms in AV/department/electronics stores either drown out sound, and that's if the stores have their CD/DVD-A/SACD players producing sound output in the first place rather than just having the players on display shelves.

"While some home theater audio- and videophiles have the money and inclination to rush out and buy the latest and greatest toys as soon as they are available, many more are becoming more cautious. Burned by 8-track, laserdisc,"

Excuse me? BURNED by LaserDisc? Precisely how is seeing films without constant rippling, blurring, and in their original aspect ratio with sometimes bonus features and director's commentaries not available on the VHS versions, being "burned"?

It's interesting that he mentions LaserDisc as "the latest and greatest" though because when LaserDisc launched in the late 70s (I think), it wasn't called LaserDisc at all. It was called MCA Discovision and the launch was an unmitigated disaster with disc defect rates as high as 95%. When Pioneer came in and rescued it and renamed it "LaserDisc", the format still had a reasonable following in Japan and a dedicated "cult" following (I think that's an OK description) in the US.

"(and possibly soon non-HDCP HDTV)"

Agree entirely with that - been there!

That said, isn't there a "truce period" of a few years that's been agreed, where Component video will still give HD resolutions from earlier titles? It's annoying for sure - but it doesn't stop people enjoying HD-DVD now.

"these war-weary consumers are going to think long and hard before jumping onto any new technological bandwagons."

Actually, this war-weary consumer has just imported an HD-DVD player. 450 pounds (and that's a UK import price) for buggy, but still amazing, new technology. In 2004, that's the same price I paid for a top of the line Pioneer SD-DVD player!

Just to make it clear, I'm not shooting the messenger :) and it was a good read and he DID make some good points, but overall I'm not impressed at all by many of those arguments.

[AndyWilson]

I got to spend a fair bit of time in a Sony Store in Las Vegas the other day while my wife browsed the shoe-shops. Naturally I spent most of that time watching the Blu-Ray demos. Taking into account the only HD material I've seen before is a Telewest demo in Dixons I was distinctly unimpressed. Sure the picture was good but to claim it is anywhere near comparable to the difference between VHS and DVD is just plain wrong. Some people forget that VHS could be nearly unwatchable on a 32" screen. Blu-Ray is just a bit sharper, deeper, and more colourful than SD sources. Great for nature documentaries and sports - demo clips from action films like XxX and Spider-Man work well too - but I'm unconvinced it would make me enjoy, say Ghost World, or even the entirity of Spider-Man anymore.