View Full Version : 720p/24fps et al - no more PAL speed up?
I've seen various mentions of "720p/24fps" or "1080p/24fps" on these forums when discussing HD. Does this mean that you have a progressively encoded signal that "plays" at 24 frames per second, and therefore signals the end - finally! - to the old PAL speed up issue? I would be aghast if the new formats still had to deal with frame rates issues, NTSC pull down and PAL speed up, but early reports suggested this was the case.
Anyone have the definitive answer - or will we have to wait for European disks and players to appear before we know?
thescrounger
08-07-2006, 15:01
You only need look at SKYHD for your answer:
What format will the Sky HD system use?
Sky 's HD broadcasting system and new HD Box will support two HD formats:
- 720p/50 (Progressively Scanned picture, 50 frames per second)
- 1080i/25 (Interlaced, 25 frames delivered by 50 interlaced fields per second)
DarthVader
08-07-2006, 19:55
You only need look at SKYHD for your answer:
Hasn't Sky decided just to opt for 1080i instead of both it and 720p?
thescrounger
08-07-2006, 19:57
Maybe, it's still '25' though.
Is that a Sky decision or does it indicate what we can expect on disk?
thescrounger
09-07-2006, 12:46
Disc too. If cameras are shooting that way then HD material will be released that way.
... but cameras aren't. that's why you have the PAL speed up issue in the first place. It's cos of film shooting at 24 fps.
thescrounger
09-07-2006, 15:59
... but cameras aren't. that's why you have the PAL speed up issue in the first place. It's cos of film shooting at 24 fps.
Yes, film is shot at 24fps. Much of broadcast TV in the UK is not.
DarthVader
09-07-2006, 17:32
Disc too. If cameras are shooting that way then HD material will be released that way.
Are blu-ray and HD-DVD not going to be 1080p?
Yes, film is shot at 24fps. Much of broadcast TV in the UK is not.
I know.
But it won't be subject to speed up if it's both recorded and transmitted/played at the same speed.
Speed up will occur on films shot at 24fps but played back at 25fps.
We need to know what rate is going to be used to play back films in particular to find out whether there speed up.
Yes, perhaps I should have been clearer - it is the treatment of 24 fps film that I am interested in.
I've yet to hear pal speed up, although after having a 100 hz tv i can now see 50 hz flicker.
How do people manage to detect this?
@SimonI - fit like min?
thescrounger
09-07-2006, 20:20
I know.
But it won't be subject to speed up if it's both recorded and transmitted/played at the same speed.
Speed up will occur on films shot at 24fps but played back at 25fps.
We need to know what rate is going to be used to play back films in particular to find out whether there speed up.
There will be speedup when films are converted to 25fps. I already posted what the framerate SKY HD is and its the same 25/50 that we are used to. It's a superior conversion process but speedup is a side effect.
nscol :wave:
But what about "1080p/24fps" that people talk about? Is that a format that allows for playback of film at the correct speed?
There will be speedup when films are converted to 25fps. I already posted what the framerate SKY HD is and its the same 25/50 that we are used to. It's a superior conversion process but speedup is a side effect.
Yes but that's Sky, not Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. They might support 24fps, surely...?
thescrounger
10-07-2006, 12:21
Yes but that's Sky, not Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. They might support 24fps, surely...?
I'm sure that, in the same way most DVD players can play back NTSC that will be the same on HD-DVD players.
I've seen various mentions of "720p/24fps" or "1080p/24fps" on these forums when discussing HD.
Where have you seen this?
I have seen it on camcorders (high end mainly (£25k+))
I've not seen it regarding shiney discs or digital TV.
We still don't know what studios in Europe are going to do with HD DVD.
If they're smart, they'll just use the existing US video masters and leave them at 1080p 24fps.
thescrounger
15-07-2006, 14:07
I'll be very suprised if that's what happens.
I'll be very suprised if that's what happens.
Oh right, why's that?
thescrounger
15-07-2006, 15:32
Because the UK broadcast HD framerate has been decided and it's 25/50.
fattyboombatty
16-07-2006, 10:19
Because the UK broadcast HD framerate has been decided and it's 25/50.
yes but that applies to broadcast only. not film/hd-dvd releases. and if you read avforums there is a guy claiming hd-dvd WON'T do 25f. :shrug:
thescrounger
16-07-2006, 11:17
I'd say he's talking nonsense.
fattyboombatty
16-07-2006, 11:30
i don't know, check it out. seems about right.
thescrounger
16-07-2006, 11:46
Do you have a link?
Sounds ridiculous anyway, the idea that HD-DVD cannot play back 25/50 HD material. :nuts:
Perhaps you've misunderstood what he was talking about.
Michael Mackenzie
16-07-2006, 13:11
I'm crossing my fingers that the European distributors will see sense and encode their HD titles at 24 fps. Given that, in order to get any benefit from HD, you'll need an HD (and therefore 24 fps capable) display, I can't see any reason to remain tied to the ridiculous legacy of 25 fps speed-up.
It's also worth bearing in mind that, provided region coding is not an issue (which it probably won't be, for early titles at least), European titles encoded at 24 fps will be playable on US HD DVD players.
thescrounger
16-07-2006, 13:18
I'm crossing my fingers that the European distributors will see sense and encode their HD titles at 24 fps. Given that, in order to get any benefit from HD, you'll need an HD (and therefore 24 fps capable) display, I can't see any reason to remain tied to the ridiculous legacy of 25 fps speed-up.
You have to ask then, why was 25/50 decided on as a broadcast format.
DeadKenny
16-07-2006, 13:58
I'm sure that, in the same way most DVD players can play back NTSC that will be the same on HD-DVD players.
That's fine for imports, but not for UK released HD-DVD/Blu-Ray discs.
Because the UK broadcast HD framerate has been decided and it's 25/50.
UK broadcast choice doesn't mean HD-DVD/Blu-Ray has to be 25/50 for films. Sky are simply using 25/50 because the majority of the material is based on UK TV shows shot in that format.
Historically it's been 25/50 with VHS and DVD but that was tied a lot to the TVs they had to support. HD is a new start and I believe all the sets will support both 24 and 25fps formats, so there's no reason to not do 24fps on discs.
Time will tell, but it's madness to not finally sort the mess out and release 24fps films as 24fps on HD-DVD/Blu-Ray. There's absolutely nothing stopping them and surely it will be far cheaper as they don't have to do different encodings for the 25/50 market. Unless they feel this is just another form of region protection :oh-hum:
thescrounger
16-07-2006, 15:22
Unless they feel this is just another form of region protection :oh-hum:
Well of course, that's how they will see it.
yes but that applies to broadcast only. not film/hd-dvd releases. and if you read avforums there is a guy claiming hd-dvd WON'T do 25f. :shrug:
I think you'll find the chap on AV said the US HD-DVD player won't do 25f so, even though HD DVDs are region free, you won't be able to play UK discs on a US player.
Edge
Michael Mackenzie
16-07-2006, 15:48
I think you'll find the chap on AV said the US HD-DVD player won't do 25f so, even though HD DVDs are region free, you won't be able to play UK discs on a US player.
EdgeThat's assuming the UK discs do run at 25 fps. What many of us are hoping is that the studios see sense and got for 24 fps, since there's no longer any earthly reason to encode at 25 fps, other than to make things difficult and provide an inferior viewing experience.
Niceguygeoff
17-07-2006, 19:59
Software has traditionally aped the frame rate of the local broadcast standard, and seeing as Sky do HD at 25fps/50Hz I don't think the disc standards will be any different so as to avoid potential consumer confusion.
DeadKenny
17-07-2006, 20:04
The only confusion will be a few people might notice people's voices being lower.
Mind you people did complain a lot just in that way when the BBC started showing Star Trek TNG episodes that had been converted from NTSC in a different way that results in the voices actually being "correct".
That's assuming the UK discs do run at 25 fps. What many of us are hoping is that the studios see sense and got for 24 fps, since there's no longer any earthly reason to encode at 25 fps, other than to make things difficult and provide an inferior viewing experience.
Errr... how exactly does 25fps provide an inferior viewing experience? I'm totally with you on conforming so that there are as few compatibility issues as possible, but surely something running at 25fps is better than 24fps, at least as in more fluid?
Michael Mackenzie
18-07-2006, 16:51
Errr... how exactly does 25fps provide an inferior viewing experience? I'm totally with you on conforming so that there are as few compatibility issues as possible, but surely something running at 25fps is better than 24fps, at least as in more fluid?No, because, in the case of film, it's running faster than it should. Although, perhaps with today's bloated popcorn flicks like Pirates of the Caribbean and Superman Returns, that's a blessing in disguise. :D
Films are recorded at 24 fps, and to fit with PAL standard, they are simply played back that little bit faster - at 25fps. Meaning the whole film is sped up by roughly 4%!!
That is bad, as it is not how they should be. Some people notice it more than others (can't say I notice it at all - BUT I'd prefer it was fixed).
No, because, in the case of film, it's running faster than it should. Although, perhaps with today's bloated popcorn flicks like Pirates of the Caribbean and Superman Returns, that's a blessing in disguise. :D
:lol: Indeed.
Michael Mackenzie
19-07-2006, 14:57
http://ntsc-uk.domino.org/showthread.php?p=859417#post859417
Apparently, it's now been confirmed that Studio Canal's European titles will be 24p/60 hz. If this indeed turns out to be true, then all I can say is "way to go, Canal!" and hope that the other studios follow suit. Now, I can pick up a copy of Mulholland Dr when it comes out over here instead of waiting in the hope of a US release.
thescrounger
19-07-2006, 21:44
This is interesting and good news.
So I could potentially start importing HD-DVD films now, safe in the knowledge that they will play on the european machines released later this year.
Michael Mackenzie
19-07-2006, 22:19
This is interesting and good news.
So I could potentially start importing HD-DVD films now, safe in the knowledge that they will play on the european machines released later this year.I don't think the playability of Region 0 US titles on European machines was ever in any doubt. Of course, from my perspective it's more exciting that I'll be able to play these titles on my US machine. :D
thescrounger
20-07-2006, 11:31
I see on some forums this news has a mixed reaction as some prefer speedup to 3:2 pulldown.
Excuse my ignorance, but surely there shouldn't be 3:2 pull down since the film, recording, and play back will all be at 24 progressive frames per second...? Surely that's why we're all getting so excited about it? I understand, NTSC TVs in the past had a 60Hz refresh rate, which caused 3:2 pull down, but I thought this was now a thing of the past since High def TVs could adapt to the frame rate that was sent to them...?
thescrounger
20-07-2006, 12:53
Even 24p technically suffers from pulldown, but it will be less noticable than 60hz refresh.
DeadKenny
20-07-2006, 13:08
Pulldown is just a term to describe fitting frames into a refresh rate. You could have a 72Hz rate and have a 3:3 pulldown. In fact UK TV shows on 50Hz sets have a 2:2 pulldown (25fps into 50Hz). You'll get no judder from from even pulldowns. It's when it's at a ratio like 3:2 that you get judder.
thescrounger
20-07-2006, 13:11
It's when it's at a ratio like 3:2 that you get judder.
That's the one we are talking about:
Studio Canal's European titles will be 24p/60 hz
DeadKenny
20-07-2006, 13:20
Shame they couldn't standardise on 72Hz. Though progressive scan helps a lot.
So the screen will refresh at 60hz, even though it's capable of many different refresh rates...? Seems a very strange decision...
the highlander
22-07-2006, 02:44
:thumbs: this is a interesting thread , i got one of the aldi DVD players (on the bargain area) and on setting it up it had a option for setting the player to run at 24 fps :thumbs: i don't know if that will make any difference , but the player is fantastic (just plug in your external HD(usb) (fat32) with your divx stuff and a lot more and it will happily play them :thumbs:
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