Training Day reviewed in HD DVD and Blu-ray

[Dan]

Seems that HD-DVD has won this battle, have a read of this review here.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/trainingday.html

[GarethH]

Yeah, big shame. The next wave of WB Blue-rays will be VC1 so it'll be good to see how it holds up.

[RobDickinson]

Thats if they've sorted 50gig disks out.

Edit , strike that, pointless coment, let me explain.

So far, 15gb HD VC1 disks & 30gb VC1 HD disks have looked better than 25gb BR mpeg2 disks.

So we can assume that VC1 >>>>> mpeg2 & probably 30gb VC1 is going to be better than 50gb mpeg2.

So BR 25g VC1 disks will be >> 15gb HD VC1 and slightly < 30gb HD VC1 disks.

So the ONLY way BR can 'win' in quality is with 50gb VC1 disks, and I dont actualy think anyone is planning bothering with them because they wont show much advantage over 25/30gb VC1 disks.

[Grandmaster]

Studios are businesses and they want to make money. Why should they invest in a 50GB dual layer version of a disk that is already more expensive to produce than an HD-DVD?

The logical business conclusion would be to maintain a release strategy of dual layer HD-DVD (30GB) and a single-layer Blu-Ray (25GB) using VC1. Both could easily contain a movie with excellent audio. Extras could be pressed onto a normal dual layer DVD, which could easily contain an hour or so of decent quality VC1 (although amazingly, Blu-Print (Sony's authoring tool) won't master DVDs with HD content - so their sales rep tells me).

BTW, comparison reviews of Training Day, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang and Rumour Has It are here. (http://www.highdefdigest.com/feature_blurayvshddvd_firstcomparison.html)

The larger capacity of Blu-Ray could actually end up backfiring spectacularly.

[greath]

I guess it's a case of the 50GB Blu-Ray discs would be nice but the format could be dead before they can deliver them with a sufficient yield and price. However, from the reviewer's comments, it sounds like most of the complaints on the video are trivial and if the Blu-Ray discs had the aspect ratio the same then it might be not so cut-and-dry in HD DVD's favour.

[neilalford]

it sounds like most of the complaints on the video are trivial and if the Blu-Ray discs had the aspect ratio the same then it might be not so cut-and-dry in HD DVD's favour.

True, but it's still currently offering a worse image for twice the price, if it was HD-DVD with the slightly worse image but with its cheaper price then people might overlook the reduced quality in order to save money, but who's going to pay considerably more for an inferior system.

[greath]

True, but it's still currently offering a worse image for twice the price, if it was HD-DVD with the slightly worse image but with its cheaper price then people might overlook the reduced quality in order to save money, but who's going to pay considerably more for an inferior system.

True. If you're paying double the price and then find that you have an inferior picture to your friend-next-door's cheaper system then you would feel a little upset.

[jake1969]

I was a majorly big fan of Blu-Ray, thinking the superior capacity and better compression would be worth the extra cash.......but I'm not so sure now.

I guess we'll only really know though when better quality high def format players arrive on the market.

[Michael Mackenzie]

I was a majorly big fan of Blu-Ray, thinking the superior capacity and better compression would be worth the extra cash.......but I'm not so sure now. Um, what better compression? Blu-ray releases are currently using the inferior and outdated MPEG2, and even when they start using VC-1, all that's going to do is (potentially) bring them up to the same level as HD DVD. Blu-ray's only technological advantage is going to be capacity, and that's assuming they can start replicating 50 GB discs in reliable quantities which, to put it bluntly, is looking pretty unlikely right now.

[thescrounger]

The fact they haven't sorted double layer yet implies it's potentially unreliable. Doesn't fill me with confidence, when it finally does come out there are bound to be even more troubles from there.

[roadkill_88]

Well i'm going with BluRay regardless since i'm getting the PS3 in November. To be honest, i don't care. I figure that if BluRay loses, by the time it has well and truly "lost", a good HD DVD player will have came down in price.

I personally couldn't give a damn what the pixels on the corner or some building or someones arm looks like at x-level of zoom, as long as its a pretty good HD picture up untill then i'm ok.

[thescrounger]

Well i'm going with BluRay regardless since i'm getting the PS3 in November. To be honest, i don't care. I figure that if BluRay loses, by the time it has well and truly "lost", a good HD DVD player will have came down in price.
.

You wont be able to play Bluray discs on an HD-DVD player...

[Michael Mackenzie]

Well i'm going with BluRay regardless since i'm getting the PS3 in November. To be honest, i don't care. I figure that if BluRay loses, by the time it has well and truly "lost", a good HD DVD player will have came down in price.

I personally couldn't give a damn what the pixels on the corner or some building or someones arm looks like at x-level of zoom, as long as its a pretty good HD picture up untill then i'm ok.
But that's just it - in many cases Blu-ray is not delivering "a pretty good HD picture". Some of the titles that have been released so far barely look better than standard definition. Look at this (http://www.pbase.com/alansh/image/62394763) comparison of the Superbit DVD and Blu-ray releases of The Fifth Element.

[roadkill_88]

You wont be able to play Bluray discs on an HD-DVD player...

I know, thats why i said by the time BluRay had well and truly lost (i.e. good movies stopped appearing on them) sufficient time (because it would take a while - even if BluRay "loses") would have passed so that HD players would have came down in price, so i could switch formats.

[roadkill_88]

But that's just it - in many cases Blu-ray is not delivering "a pretty good HD picture". Some of the titles that have been released so far barely look better than standard definition. Look at this (http://www.pbase.com/alansh/image/62394763) comparison of the Superbit DVD and Blu-ray releases of The Fifth Element.

So BluRay movies aren't appearing in 720p, or whats the deal? Any comparisons like that for HD-DVD? I haven't been updating myself with these things.

[Michael Mackenzie]

So BluRay movies aren't appearing in 720p, or whats the deal? Any comparisons like that for HD-DVD? I haven't been updating myself with these things.
No, Blu-ray, like HD DVD, stores its material at 1080p. It's the quality of the master, and/or the way it's been encoded (excessive filtering and edge enhancement), that's the issue.

And, unfortunately, there don't seem to be any similar comparisons for HD DVD. As someone who has seen DVD and HD DVD versions of the same film playing side by side, though, rest assured that the difference is phenomenal.

[roadkill_88]

I'm not convinced all BluRay movies will be sold everywhere in the quality shown above. I thought the difference between in and HD DVD would be trivial, but thats just terrible. They'd never get away with it. Either way, when its all said and done i'll have whichever is best.

Anyway, heres something more positive.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/terminator.html

[RobDickinson]

Both formats store the movie in up to 1080p resolution.

Both formats can use mpeg2, mpeg2 H.264 or VC1 codecs.

HD Disk sizes are 15 & 30gig (with possible 45gig later).

BR Disk sizes are 25g now, with possible 50gig later.

Current HD disks are 15 & 30gig VC1 encoded, Current BR disks are 25gig mpeg 2 encoded. This is a BR problem as mpeg 2 is old and inferior.

Players - Both current players (BR & HD) use the SAME decoding chip - its only able to output 1080i. BR player has an extra chip that upscales to 1080p, this has a problem with HDMI and causes poor picture quality, reviewers know this and avoid by using Component. Sonys initial BR player was based on the faulty samsung and will be delayed.

Aspect ratio problem is possibly the samsung BR player hardware, or possibly the encoding, too early to tell, best 'ignored' for now on a technical basis.

Unless BR can produce 50gig VC1 encoded disks at true 1080p then it doesnt have a technical advantage, and is more expensive. Sony and its PS3 may drive sales though.

[roadkill_88]

Just a few newb questions here but;

1) What would the likely price of a HD-DVD/BluRay player be?

2) Average price of a HD-DVD/BluRay movie?

I'd never really considered #2 untill i heard about 50gb discs... :eek:

[RobDickinson]

Just a few newb questions here but;

1) What would the likely price of a HD-DVD/BluRay player be?

2) Average price of a HD-DVD/BluRay movie?

I'd never really considered #2 untill i heard about 50gb discs... :eek:


1) Amazon sell the Tosh HD -DVD for $458 today, so prehaps 300 quid at launch in the Uk. Samsungs BR player was $999 when it was on sale, so 500+, Sony PS3 will be the cheapest BR player by far.

2) Both disks seem to be $20-30 on amazon.

[greath]

1) Amazon sell the Tosh HD -DVD for $458 today, so prehaps 300 quid at launch in the Uk.


And when will drives be available for PCs? I wouldn't mind getting one for my PC to go with my new Dell monitor.

[RobDickinson]

Anandtech (I think) have just reviewed playing back HD_DVD's on PC, what power requirements, hardware (tosh drive) and software is required for HD-DVD and encrypted disks, and i thnik Dell do a laptop with a HD-DVD drive in now too.

So I guess theres soem drives around, mebe beta/early release stuff. Takes a grunty PC and vid card acceleration (GF7+ etc) to decode/play encrypted stuff.

[greath]

Thanks. Here's the link. However, it does sound like a laptop won't have enough battery capacity to allow you to watch a whole movie with the processor requirement necessary for decoding!

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2798

[Faythur]

And when will drives be available for PCs? I wouldn't mind getting one for my PC to go with my new Dell monitor.

A Blu-Ray drive is available now - but check out the price! :eek: http://www.diskdepot.co.uk/acatalog/optical-drives-1.html

[Michael Mackenzie]

A Blu-Ray drive is available now - but check out the price! :eek: http://www.diskdepot.co.uk/acatalog/optical-drives-1.html
I owned one of those for about 24 hours before realising how bad the first batch of Blu-ray releases was. I sent it back and bought an HD DVD player for less money, and boy am I glad.

[greath]

I owned one of those for about 24 hours before realising how bad the first batch of Blu-ray releases was. I sent it back and bought an HD DVD player for less money, and boy am I glad.

Did you actually get a software player with it? From the description it sounds like all that you can do is use it to burn discs at the moment. There's no mention of playback software.

[Michael Mackenzie]

Did you actually get a software player with it? From the description it sounds like all that you can do is use it to burn discs at the moment. There's no mention of playback software.
Yeah, that was another problem. The Intervideo and Cyberlink sites sort of imply that the latest versions of WinDVD and PowerDVD respectively can play Blu-ray and HD DVD discs, but what they don't tell you is that they require a purchasable plug-in that isn't actually available yet. :oh-hum: